Send us a message that we can respond to at the end of every episode!
Imagine a world where the iconic symbol of hope, Superman, turns rogue. That's exactly what we're taking a hard look at today as we explore the rising trope of the 'evil Superman' and its gripping narratives in comics. From its early 2000s origin to the popular comic series Injustice, we're deconstructing the shocking storyline where the Joker goes to the length of planting a nuclear weapon and tethering it to Lois Lane's heartbeat. This shift in Superman's character has been met with intrigue and has led to numerous copycats since its inception. Together, we uncover the compelling contrasts between Injustice 1 and Injustice 2 and their connection to the DC universe. This exploration also leads us to examine the repercussions of Superman's failure to protect his city and how this impacts the decisions of other heroes. We then compare different versions of Superman, such as Omni Man and Homelander, shedding light on how upbringing and environment play a part in their character development. We ruminate on the broader impact and themes of comics, particularly how the 'evil Superman' trope has been used to illustrate the tragedy of a hero gone rogue.
As we wrap up, we share some personal comic book recommendations, highlighting our favorite writers and artists, including the likes of Tom King, Donny Cates, Mark Waid, and Alex Ross. Tune in for an enlightening journey into the world of the 'evil Superman' trope. Timecodes are provided if you want to skip around to your topic of choice! Thank you to everyone who continues to support and don’t forget to subscribe to download new episodes as they become available and don’t be afraid to share a rating!
00:00 Intro
01:26 SAG-AFTRA Strike Update
02:58 Analyzing the “Evil Superman” Trope in Comics & Gaming
42:18 Just Some Comics Things
59:25 Signing Off & Topic for Next Week (Kingdom Come Maybe??)
In the wake of the tragic death of Power Ranger actor Jason David Frank, from this episode on, the number for the Suicide and Crisis Prevention Hotline will be displayed here: 9-8-8. It's that simple. Call or text that number to be instantly sourced to a crisis counselor. Speak with someone today if you feel alone and need help.
Email the pod at projectinfinitepod@gmail.com
Tweet us/Follow at https://twitter.com/ProjectInf_Pod
Follow on Facebook
Follow on Instagram at theprojectinfinitepod
Follow Court’s Film on Instagram @untilnexttimefilm
Twitter for Rob https://twitter.com/R_Peck0628
Twitter for Courtney https://twitter.com/courtkid123
In the wake of the tragic death of Power Ranger actor Jason David Frank, from this episode on, the number for the Suicide and Crisis Prevention Hotline will be displayed here: 9-8-8. It's that simple. Call or text that number to be instantly sourced to a crisis counselor. Speak with someone today if you feel alone and need help.
Send us a message that we can respond to at the end of every episode!
Imagine a world where the iconic symbol of hope, Superman, turns rogue. That's exactly what we're taking a hard look at today as we explore the rising trope of the 'evil Superman' and its gripping narratives in comics. From its early 2000s origin to the popular comic series Injustice, we're deconstructing the shocking storyline where the Joker goes to the length of planting a nuclear weapon and tethering it to Lois Lane's heartbeat. This shift in Superman's character has been met with intrigue and has led to numerous copycats since its inception. Together, we uncover the compelling contrasts between Injustice 1 and Injustice 2 and their connection to the DC universe. This exploration also leads us to examine the repercussions of Superman's failure to protect his city and how this impacts the decisions of other heroes. We then compare different versions of Superman, such as Omni Man and Homelander, shedding light on how upbringing and environment play a part in their character development. We ruminate on the broader impact and themes of comics, particularly how the 'evil Superman' trope has been used to illustrate the tragedy of a hero gone rogue.
As we wrap up, we share some personal comic book recommendations, highlighting our favorite writers and artists, including the likes of Tom King, Donny Cates, Mark Waid, and Alex Ross. Tune in for an enlightening journey into the world of the 'evil Superman' trope. Timecodes are provided if you want to skip around to your topic of choice! Thank you to everyone who continues to support and don’t forget to subscribe to download new episodes as they become available and don’t be afraid to share a rating!
00:00 Intro
01:26 SAG-AFTRA Strike Update
02:58 Analyzing the “Evil Superman” Trope in Comics & Gaming
42:18 Just Some Comics Things
59:25 Signing Off & Topic for Next Week (Kingdom Come Maybe??)
In the wake of the tragic death of Power Ranger actor Jason David Frank, from this episode on, the number for the Suicide and Crisis Prevention Hotline will be displayed here: 9-8-8. It's that simple. Call or text that number to be instantly sourced to a crisis counselor. Speak with someone today if you feel alone and need help.
Email the pod at projectinfinitepod@gmail.com
Tweet us/Follow at https://twitter.com/ProjectInf_Pod
Follow on Facebook
Follow on Instagram at theprojectinfinitepod
Follow Court’s Film on Instagram @untilnexttimefilm
Twitter for Rob https://twitter.com/R_Peck0628
Twitter for Courtney https://twitter.com/courtkid123
In the wake of the tragic death of Power Ranger actor Jason David Frank, from this episode on, the number for the Suicide and Crisis Prevention Hotline will be displayed here: 9-8-8. It's that simple. Call or text that number to be instantly sourced to a crisis counselor. Speak with someone today if you feel alone and need help.
It's the Infinite Podcast. Go tell your friends. It's the Infinite Podcast. My God, it never ends. It's the Infinite Podcast. We're driving towards the cube.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Project Infinite Podcast, the podcast covering the infinite and ever-expanding multiverse of fandom, from movies, comics, tv shows, video games. We got you covered. I'm Rob.
Speaker 1:I'm here, as always, with Kort Kort, we took a week off, took a week off Recalibrated, recalibrated, reevaluated, just very still abundant that we stand with the actors and writers. We still will not be reviewing anything from any struck written company. In fact, what we're going to focus on for a little bit was one of the leading forces of this podcast that never came to fruition was the comic piece of this podcast. Obviously, we talked about comics as it pertains to movies and TV shows and that matter, but I think we've only once talked about a comic, and it wasn't even our own episode. So I'm glad we're getting to the roots of a huge portion of what we talk about on here and I'll leave it at that. We're not going to talk about any movies, any references, characters that we might talk about, maybe in movies, anything like that. We're just talking about comics, which is going to be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I mean first and foremost as it relates to the strike and all that. There have been a few updates since we last talked about it, in so far as they're going to sit down later this week and potentially restart negotiations, which could be a positive thing.
Speaker 2:So far the writer, specifically the writer's guild. Yeah, so far as you know, at least they're willing to talk, so that's something. It doesn't mean that anything is going to come out of it. Frank Drescher has come out and said that they have enough funds to be on the picket lines for another six months. If it comes to that, she's being quoted the same there In it to win it. They actually released kind of a list of people that were generous enough to donate, seven figures. I think Dwight Johnson was the first one that kind of got outed, I guess you know, which doesn't surprise me. I mean, say what you will about him and his work, but anyone who's ever seen him interact and you know, take to being in front of a camera and knows that he'll take care of people when he can, so shout out to him. I know George Clooney was mentioned, oprah Winfrey.
Speaker 1:Meryl Streep Hugh.
Speaker 2:Jackman, just among the list of names that have donated to the cause that they're fighting for and, as you said, up top, we still stand with them. Won't be reviewing anything. You know that's been struck. So that's really the only news piece. I have Anything to add?
Speaker 1:No, no, I think we talked about everything we needed to, and let's get after it we are talking about today yeah, so I guess it's a.
Speaker 2:you know, you like Superman, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not a Superman hater like a lot of people are, so yeah, so we're actually talking about the comic daredevil born again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we thought we would just kind of take this week to talk a little bit about Superman in particular. The rising trope of the evil Superman right, the evil Superman archetype that you know even though might not honestly only be one other character that we might mention on here has been around for a few decades. This really kind of kicked off in the early 2000s when it came to Superman, because people you know, across all type of media, were just like Superman is boring, there's nothing to it. And then you know, you get to 2006 with the boys comic comes out and we get the introduction of Homelander, who was you know basically, the corporally owned.
Speaker 2:Corporally owned Superman.
Speaker 1:And then a year later, I believe, you get invincible, you get omniman. So as popular as Superman is this, you know you get somewhere with a character that far I mean, how many years you were, what? 60, some odd years into the characters run. Obviously there's going to be copycats, because he is the archetype superhero, so might as well make the the opposite Some would say the reverse maybe. So yeah, now we are at the point where you know evil Superman or different versions of Superman are running rampant, and I mean it's just a testament to how popular Superman is himself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but then the real, I guess, kind of reason to talk about this is because there was one, one particular media that really took the evil Superman notion and, you know, ran with it, and that is injustice, obviously spawned by another one studios, the developers of Mortal Kombat, gave us Injustice. Superman, which the high, high Chancellor, superman basically was, you know, because Netherrealm, obviously, if you ever played the DC versus Mortal Kombat games, netherrealm, owned by Warner Brothers, so they were like kind of took it a step further and they wanted to make a fighting game with only DC characters, dc based fighting game. And you know, as Netherrealm, you know, wanton does, they want to, obviously didn't want to do it within the confines of a colorful, comic bookie, positive universe. So they created this, this narrative of injustice which starts out basically you know the.
Speaker 2:Justice League doing Justice League things, yep Fighting Tuesday, yep, and as they're one to do, but in the, in the backdrop, the Joker has, has, has some machinations going on, a metropolis got one trick up his sleeve, one trick, and that trick is Lois Lane.
Speaker 1:It's a good trick, yeah? So what he does is essentially tether's Lois Lane's heartbeat to a nuclear weapon that's planted in Metropolis, and if her heart stops, then bye, bye, metropolis. So Superman hears it, goes over, sees Lois with the Joker. What is he killed?
Speaker 2:Joker. Oh yeah, superman.
Speaker 1:Lois is Tuesday, right, yep. And then he kills Lois, and then, with also killing Lois, he also kills the city that he loves, on top of that too. So, and then the inception of the regime and of the evil, superman, and then we get into injustice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you know, obviously Batman has the Joker locked up and he's going to what did you do, joker, and why did you do this? And Joker's argument is basically you're, you're boring like Batman, like you're, no, like. I wanted to see if Superman could be more of a challenge. And turns out it's actually easier to to mess with Superman Like you're. So you know he's so big and strong, but he's so gullible. Yep, you know, and that's why I did that. Superman busts the door down and he's you know, like I'm.
Speaker 2:he's ready to kill the Joker and Batman is trying to bring Superman down and Joker is basically laughing in Superman's face, like you know the difference between you and Batman is like I know you're not going to cross any lines, like you're Superman, you know.
Speaker 2:And then Superman rears up and Ka-Blam-o puts his fist through the Joker and then sends Superman down the trajectory of well, you know this. This would have never happened if we just eradicated criminals, like wipe them off the face of the earth. Why, you know. He basically, you know, takes the argument, essentially the argument that Lex Luthor has been arguing for for years.
Speaker 2:What's Betty humans, yeah, yeah like saying you're, you're this godlike being. Why aren't you acting like it? Superman's like, why aren't I acting like it? Actually, so he, yeah, he forms the regime. He splinters the Justice League in the process. So who takes his Green Lantern flash?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the flash. The flash is a big one when you go to talk about injustice to and injustice to injustice to itself was like a fun. It's crazy that you get a phenomenon and then you get another one on top of that too. But yeah, talking the first one you get, you know you get the flash. Cyborg, I believe, join Superman. That's a big guess on Green Lantern. So I'm talking like some heavy, heavy hitters go to join Superman.
Speaker 2:And then I mean, the big one is Wonder Woman is. Wonder Woman becomes Superman's kind of love interest in the wake of Lois Lane. And then Batman teams up with a bunch of basically like renegades.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2:Who's it's? Green Arrow, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Harley Quinn.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's a big one, obviously.
Speaker 2:Yep, deathstroke is like a middleman, but he's, you know, he's not on board with Superman, because Superman is trying to eradicate all criminals, so the by default the criminals kind of lean towards the anti regime side, except for the ones that he like offers amnesty to Right, and then you have, I mean, dick Grayson obviously is on Batman's side until and this is, you know, not to deviate away from the Superman point too much. But, like injustice, the comic itself is kind of goofy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I've always said that. I think the catalyst for it is is very interesting, like Superman and Batman are, so they are super alike in a lot of aspects, but they are vastly different from each other. So it is funny, the one that you would have thought would have snapped and killed Joker being Batman, it ended up being Superman. That was the one that actually snapped and ended up killing Batman or killing Joker, so he should have killed Batman too.
Speaker 2:Yep, and you know that's kind of like where I wanted to start with this, with the evil Superman thing. Is he more interesting when he's evil?
Speaker 1:I just think that it feels cheaper when he's evil. Sometimes, when he's evil, I mean, what what the boys comic was able to do is it was able to like make it a political commentary almost with this version of, like this evil version of Superman, because it's a corporatized, you know, demonic like. Not like demonic in the way of like evil. It's demonic in the way of like greed, corporate greed, like consumer, like all these different facets to end up being in you know how truthfully like a product you can be and how rapid you can run if you act like that, so much so. And then, obviously, talking Omni-Man on top of that too, like you know, a different version of what Superman could have been, like a being from another planet that is just essentially a recon drone for the planet.
Speaker 2:It's funny, like looking at Homeland, or an Omni-Man specifically. So like what if the human side of Superman kind of took him over and made him evil and Omni-Man is? Like what if? Like the alien?
Speaker 1:side of Superman took him over and made him evil. What if the Kryptonian sent them there on purpose, not sent them there on out? That's exactly who Omni-Man is.
Speaker 2:Whereas, like Homeland kind, of embraces the, you know, the corporate stuff and like the really human, like greed, notwithstanding the fact that Homelander isn't as powerful a Superman, but he is obviously the Superman archetype for the boys universe. But as it pertains to like actual evil Superman, like you said, and Justice Superman, starts interesting but then it just gets kind of like goofy and I think in a weird way Injustice kind of fixes it by the end at least by the end of the first one by bringing it because spoiler, they bring the yeah, the prime universe Superman over to fight the Injustice Superman and he wins, which I think is like a commentary on like why the regular Superman is superior to like any other iteration of the character is because you know he stands for something and he tells the Justice Superman, like Lois, I mean everyone tries to tell it like.
Speaker 2:Lois would be ashamed of what you're doing. And Justice Superman's argument is like I'm doing this because of her, like what happened to her and you know how would you? He, you know, confronts the regular Superman with the idea of like what if this would have happened to you? Like it's, like you know it's, but at the same time, like it in Justice feels like just a bridge too far.
Speaker 1:Sure and I mean, you know what's this, packaged as it's, was packaged as a video game. So that's the. This is the true argument of the whole thing, of you know, how do you? It's why all these mediums are so different in terms of storytelling. Like sometimes we talk about adaptations to certain things, um, and how this it's a reverse. Like this didn't translate from a comic to a video game. This translated from a video game to a comic. So the structuring fits, because you can have things just happen, because it's a Mortal Kombat X game. So it's just you need to bridge this gap to get to the next fight, to bridge this gap, to get to the next fight, to bridge the gap, to get to the next fight, and just on and on until you're at the end, and it's just kind of a versus, in this way of like. You have to you know your character locked as these certain people to try to win, and then, essentially, you know what the last confrontation is going to be.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, and then, like the crazy thing about what you're saying with the Injustice Comics is they had the game and then they built the comic universe backwards, so like the actual Injustice Run of Comics is split into five years exactly that all precede the game, right?
Speaker 2:um, so they kind of had to build the universe backwards and they bring all these other, like, they bring, like you want to talk about, like a who's who of, like DC universe characters, right, they're all brought into this. Um, the the gods quickly get involved like the actual in God, yeah, yeah um when and they?
Speaker 2:they get turned on Superman and there's a big fight there um man, plastic man is actually a big part of this. Um, but they all serve, you know, they all serve um Superman and obviously it culminates in Superman versus Superman. And then you get Injustice 2, which I think handled.
Speaker 1:I think the nuance was a little bit better yeah, I agree 100 percent, like I guess my hot take is that. I mean I I feel like I wanted Injustice 2 come out. Was a 20 at 11 or 2012. Injustice 2 came out might have been after, maybe uh, injustice.
Speaker 1:Well, the comic came out in 2017 uh did Injustice 2 come out recently not recently, but it came out in 2017 20 okay. So Injustice 2, injustice 1 came out in what it was 2000, 2013 13 okay, so right. So I remember I played the first one um and I kind of just bed, just like I was speed running through the first one um because it wasn't my PlayStation and it wasn't my game, um. But finally, 2017, it was my. Like Injustice 2, I have like more of a connection to um, but everybody knows this Injustice story. I mean, one thing we can talk about is, like you know, leadership in terms of, in terms of these two, of these two tight into the comic book industry, and I mean specifically Superman or Batman, and it's like you can see a lot of like. You know your flashes of like. Hey, you also have Iris West's Berry. Like you know, you look at Green Lantern. Like you also have um, you also have like Carol Ferris. Like you also have these people you can lose. Obviously, that's not the main point of why you're joining me, but I could see some of them being like this is, essentially, it's not only our god, but this is our friend like, and he just had the most tragic thing that ever could have happened, to have happened to him. And it's like you know the way they kind of purpose. It is kind of interesting too because like, and you know, obviously it's kind of like everybody gets a city that they get to protect and the most powerful of them couldn't protect his city. So that might have been a wake-up call for some of that. Like what if it is captain cold one day wakes up and just like it's over, like I'm I'm getting, I'm annihilating the city, or like you know, some natural shows? I mean that did happen, obviously it was. It ended up being, you know, parallax that did it. But you know, coast city is gone for Green Lantern.
Speaker 1:So it is interesting that you know all of them go to follow Superman, like some of them, without second thoughts. Some of them are a little bit more hesitant too. And then you know, from Batman's perspective, the thing for the villains too, which is also interesting, is like it's not, it's the amnesty of the situation. But it's also, like you know, batman might not be the worst person that we thought he was this whole time where we were fighting against them this whole time. And like Batman's a doer, he's not, uh, he's like they're both doers in the situation, like Superman's like all right, it's, we're in a we're in a we're in a utopian state now that I'm gonna try to build, and Batman's like that's not freedom, that's you know. That's essentially everything that that happened in and other projects, but I just like the, the dichotomy between the two. I think it is one of the strongest.
Speaker 2:Is is packaged into the story yeah, yeah, I agree, and I think there's a particular bit where Superman kind of comes. The one, the first one that kind of stands up to him, is Shazam, which I think is interesting and that's not explored enough, because again being being the type of property that it is, that that big shock value scene of Superman killing Shazam and that's kind of the impetus for Barry Allen leaving the regime because, you know, you know what I love about.
Speaker 1:They're not love because Shazam gets killed, but you know what I love about that. Who's who's Shazam built it like. I'm not talking like you know, shazam is an archetype. Is it like Shazam physically? Like Billy Batson tries to get the closest to Superman when he turns into Shazam. That's why it's like it's. It's a blow like it's an absolute blow to the gut when that happens too. So, um, I definitely would love to see that explored a little more. I mean, kingdom Come actually does that or not? Kingdom Come, there's a.
Speaker 1:There's a really incredible comic that I love that Jim Kruger did with Alex Ross. When it's like Alex Ross is like when Christopher Nolan makes a movie, it's like you know. So Alex Ross drew this and it's called Justice. I think he came out in like 2005 or 2006, but it's incredible, it's, it's truthfully, it's something that I would love to talk about one day. It's such it's it's like an instant classic because essentially it's just the Justice League versus the In-Depth Justice League. But the In-Justice League just make this absolutely elaborate plan to dismantle the Justice League, um, one by one through all their you know, every one, every Justice League member essentially gets a rogue to go after them. Um, and the one that saves Superman is Shazam too and like you can kind of see from Superman's perspective like this could be the future of me too.
Speaker 2:So to have in this comic like him and that kind of that idea is very interesting yeah it's one of those shocking moments of the game, um, obviously is when Superman kills Shazam and that's kind of the undoing is because Barry leaves, because, like, that's the Superman was smart about the way he kind of drew the battle lines. Like, if you look at Superman's side with the regime side, it's all the superpowers, yep, yep, it's the flash. It's Green Lantern who has turned in his green for yellow because he came into his, to his it was, uh, his fear and became a yellow lantern. Um, wonder Woman, obviously, and then, you know, batman kind of has this ragtag group of some. I don't think is there any powered people in Batman side, and there's a couple like classic man.
Speaker 1:I know is I mean Deathstroke is just Captain America. Essentially it's nothing like overly exuberant.
Speaker 2:But it's a green arrow from the primers.
Speaker 1:Right universe yeah.
Speaker 2:The alternate universe. Green arrow gets killed by Superman and I love the green arrow, black Canary stuff specifically in that story because they're just kind of like, well, this, this sucks, yeah, yep, and they get pulled over from the other universe and they're like, well, I guess we're gonna do this Right. But Injustice 2 kind of, I think, like I said, I think does the.
Speaker 1:It's more nuanced in the sense that, like Brainiac, shows up, so I and so this is where I draw the line on Injustice 2, is I have a deep love hate relationship because I feel like you, all right if you're gonna double down on the point, you're gonna double down on the point for the second game of a versus type thing. But again, everybody kind of needs to just put their differences aside for Brainiac and then it just ends up turning back into Batman, batman vs Superman.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, yeah, I don't. Yeah, I like the way that it was set up, yeah, it's interesting, but I don't like the way it finishes, because, you're right, it does just Brainiac's defeated and you think like, all right, the fences are mended, but Superman's like, because they defeat Brainiac and Superman's like, well, we just have to kill him now, and Batman's like what?
Speaker 1:And it's like here we go again, like we've already been through this, like we already went through this, the same battle lines get drawn again, and then I mean obviously the most interesting thing about Justice 2, because the video game is you get to choose.
Speaker 2:So there's really no clean finish on what actually ends up happening with the universe. It's either Superman imprisons Batman and makes him a slave to the world ship.
Speaker 1:Right Because Superman takes the Brainiac technology right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because he sees it as a way to basically empower, strengthen the regime and because he masks it first by saying I'm the only one strong enough that can handle this.
Speaker 1:That fight between Barry in the reverse flash and Justice 2? Money, absolute money. That fight is.
Speaker 2:I love how the reverse flash just shows up and he's like I'm here now, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm here now. Yeah, I'm here now and we are going to fight, so I hope you're ready. It's like it's one of the best speedsters displays I've ever seen. It's incredible.
Speaker 2:Good. But yeah, I mean, you know, injustice people I feel like have been clamoring for I mean we got the animated Injustice movie which deviates quite heavily from the original stuff and it's not. It's not really that good. But you know, and then, like I said, this evil Superman thing really started in kind of started in the 2000s, because even DC has done it, even outside of Injustice. So you have Superman, red Sun, a lot of these evil Superman within the compounds of DC always start, always kind of the mission statement is one of Superman just landed in a different place.
Speaker 1:You don't even need to put landed in a different place, just say just one of Superman and just change something, and that's the thing I mean. So you have all the DC side, red Sun, you have, ultraman, you have who else do you have? Geez, bizarro, bizarro, I mean Superboard. Prime Technic Leads, another like. It's just a like all these different versions of Superman that are just built to be absolute tanks, that are just don't have the morality of Superman. And then you go, you go over to the Marvel side. You have Hyperion, who just dangerously close origin story to Superman with like one major difference too. And Hyperion gets an absolutely incredible arc in Hickman's.
Speaker 1:Run of the Avengers is definitely, and that's definitely a run I def, I 1 million percent want to talk about. And then, like we said, you have the utopian from Jupiter's Legacy. You have Omni-Man, you have. You have a homelander, so just cyborg Superman. I mean you have just on and on of. I mean, when death of Superman happened, it was essentially like a, like an audition for who the next Superman was going to be, and then guess who it was? It was just Superman. It just bought Clark Kent back that's.
Speaker 2:that's ultimately where they land on when they do these alternate kind of takes, unless it's something that's truly different. Like you know, you talk about the boys and you talk about invincible when they're coming. When it comes to DC, when they do the evil Superman thing, they always kind of bring it back around.
Speaker 1:Superman.
Speaker 2:And I think that's the point, right Is. I think people often take the wrong lesson from the evil Superman trope and be like look how cool he is. But like at the end of the day, like you don't want that Right.
Speaker 1:Right it just it's like I said, it feels hollow sometimes when it's just like the only concede behind this is just like this is cool because it's evil. Superman, like you know, characters like homelander get decently interesting and you know I feel like Omni, the main point that makes Omni-Man interesting is because he's Mark's dad, like that's what kind of makes him interesting and kind of you know the battles that they have to go through and suing in that and like the utopians, just like this down on his luck. You know, post like post out of my prime Superman. I mean, my favorite alternate version of Superman at that point would probably be Kingdom Come Superman.
Speaker 1:But he's the but what makes him great it's the opposite point to this is what makes him one of my favorite comic characters is is the fact that he is, you know, he is this version of Superman that did he did lose everything. Like he did lose everything that he'd had, and not only everything that he had. The world that he and you know people like Bruce and Barry and Diana tried to build is just gone now and like he's still. I mean, kryptonians obviously age differently. Diana doesn't age, so like all of them are just like they still could go out, but the world changed behind them and that's all Kingdom Comes about. So I think it would be cool the next couple of weeks if we cover Kingdom Come and we talk about like a good version of Superman, like that comes back to try to you know the importance of why, why that type of character is needed. Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 2:I think that care, I think that version of Superman is a great kind of counter to the injustice version of. Superman, like it doesn't like one bad, like horrifying, like horrifyingly bad thing you know isn't likely to change Exactly, that was my biggest fear, right.
Speaker 1:I didn't like you watching, like again, it's high in size, 2020, because when you're playing it as a game, especially you're I'm mainly focused on the next fight, essentially and then you get to the end and it's just like, well, cool, but guess who beat him? Superman, like the true Superman beats him and I guess that's the point of that. True Superman is the one that's always going to shine. It's just the believable. I can't believe I'm saying the word believability where there's a guy that can stretch 50 feet, but the believability of, like Clark Kent being snapped, that bad where it gets to the, that bad where it gets to that Like obviously red sun's different, because that makes sense. Like you know, it's the nature versus nurture thing Like who would you grow up to be? But like this is technically still Clark Kent. So why would he? Why I know that his city was lost, his unborn son in Lois, but I don't. I think that would drive him into exile of anything. I don't think that would drive him into becoming an overlord of anything.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and that's, that's, and you know, ultimately that's the whole point. That's why it's. You know it's kind of interesting that justice was the kind, not the last of these, but the more recent of these compared to characters like Homelander and Omni man, which I don't think a lot of people you know, mainstream wise recognize. Those characters have been around for almost 20 years?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, those like Omni. Man's been around for what? Almost 20 years? Yeah, it's been 16 almost, and Homelander for a little longer than that. Like these characters have been here, it's just other things have popularized them.
Speaker 2:But yeah, and then you know, and justice is relatively recent, and then you know, obviously Homelander and Omni man are getting kind of another bolstered you know kind of treatment. Because they're funny enough, they're going to be featured in the next iteration of the Mortal Kombat, which is, you know, kind of interesting in the sense that, like you know, it's not the realm's way of getting Superman into a Mortal Kombat game without, and what better way to do it than with two evil super man characters?
Speaker 2:you know, and I think, at the end of the day, man, I think we need to give give evil Superman a break and just kind of focus on regular Superman. And you know, one of the reasons he's he's so compelling is because, not not because of his powers, I think the reason he's so compelling is because of his humanity, and his humanity that he develops right, you know, over time on earth. And that's why I think the like, I think the Red Sun version is inherently more interesting than the injustice version because, because he's not intrinsically evil, like he's not built to be evil, like he still is.
Speaker 1:He's still I forget what they call him in that, but he's still Clark Kent at the end of like. That's still who he is in his, in his bones. So yeah yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And you know, that's that. And it just raises, like you said, it raises the whole nature versus nurture thing, which I think is an important part of Superman's story. You know, and that's why I think the best versions of kind of the evil Superman narrative is the idea of like what, if? What if he wasn't? I think that's all Ultraman's backstory, is that?
Speaker 2:too, oh yeah, yep, is the version of Superman that crash lands and he's. He's raised by parents that are not good parents and that turns them in. I mean, ultraman is horrifying, yeah, he is, he's absolutely terrible and he's homicidal, genocidal leads. He grows up to be a lunatic, basically, but not because of he had this. He was regular Clark Kent and then he had this horrible thing happen. He was raised in a horrible environment and, again, that's the most compelling part of it is, you know, you take this kind of ultra powerful being and what happens when they're raised in certain environments. That can be interesting, you know, and I think that's why the Red Sun iteration and Ultraman, I think you know, as time goes, are more interesting than the injustice version, because I think the injustice version just relies too much on that one trick of like I'm, I'm evil and I hate crime.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:It just kind of reduces him down to just being what you would want not one evil Superman to be, but what you would expect him to be.
Speaker 1:And I mean even even you know spoilers for the Invincible comic, but even like that also eliminates any sort of redemption art, because you don't really have room for it, because I can't sit here and have any pl like nothing's going to be plausible for you having a comeback of any sorts, like it's over for you essentially Like or Omni-Man's extremely interesting because you know he, he not like kills, like he obliterates the guardians of the globe. And you're sitting there like you're, you're shocked, like I like what is absolutely happening. And then you go deeper into volume two of the Invincible comics and you're just like, oh like, maybe he's not the worst person of not only like of his kind, maybe he's not the worst, he's not the worst of them. And you know again, it's a nurtured like. This is what he was told to do.
Speaker 1:It's not like, and you know he is in there in his eyes, like physically, a superior being. So he's just like it didn't mean anything to me. Like this is just like, you know that. Like it's like your mom was a pet to me, like it's just, that's just how it's just, it's not evil to me, it's just the way it was. Like you're not, you're not the same as me. So, and you're going to outlive all these people so like I don't understand why you're you're fighting for them. Then you go deeper in the comic.
Speaker 2:You're like oh okay, so he actually has a little something to him, yeah, and I think that's a great point too about you know, versus comparing Omni-Man to say like and just like regime.
Speaker 1:Superman is.
Speaker 2:Omni with Omni-Man.
Speaker 1:There's always, there was always a bigger, a bigger fish out there, yeah, and there's also a little piece of and you know it's the humanity he gained through having a son and through living on earth. Like it's that little piece that kept tugging at him. And so it's like maybe this isn't the worst people on in the universe, Like maybe they're not so bad. So man and justice, still, what an absolute troll call. What an absolute troll call this had on gaming, on comics, Like it was just it's insane. People wanted to see it, adapt it in a live action Adaption?
Speaker 1:yep, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know it just goes back to the fact that like, like. Where do you like? Where would you take that character Like specifically? Because, like I said, with Omni-Man there's always like, there's always there's another like tear to go of, like worst people in that universe, yeah, Whereas like regime Superman like he is the worst person in that universe, like it's really not debatable, like they go toe to toe, they go to apocalypse, they fight dark side. And even dark side is like this guy is a maniac.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's just like. Why? Where was this, Like, where was this this whole time?
Speaker 2:And then, you know, brainiac shows up in the justice too, and it kind of gets Superman. But Superman, you know, kind of convinces Batman like you can't defeat Brainiac without like I'm not inherently on your side. Let's get the band back together though.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're not inherently on your side, but you need me to defeat Brainiac. And there's that one moment yeah, there's that one moment in justice too, where they're sitting around, they make their plan to fight Brainiac and Superman's like why did you, why did you keep it? And he's referring to the fact that they are meeting at the Justice League round table and because there's a sheet over it, obviously Superman can see it. And Batman goes oh, like I forgot. I forgot that was there. And then they have this moment of like Batman saying you know I, you know I remember when Lois got pregnant and Superman said you knew, you knew and you didn't even.
Speaker 2:I didn't even have to say a word and you know Batman goes. Those were good memories and but then, like you said, it kind of just devolves back into like we have to fight because we have to fight like, for whatever reason you would think, regular Superman, even if he had done all the things by that point after they defeat Brainiac, he wouldn't have just gone back to what we have to kill Brainiac and I have to do this, like that was just a conceit of the story at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just such a heavy line too, like that specific line, like those were good memories, like feed off that, like feed off that into something, into a greater tomorrow.
Speaker 2:I guess the greater tomorrow is. If you consider the Batman ending, the canon ending, where they again put Superman back in prison and Batman kind of raises Kara as the new superhero, like the new Kryptonian hero, I guess that would be like the better tomorrow, but it still leaves Superman in a bad place and I don't feel like you need that or want that, right.
Speaker 1:No, no, I mean the development in a character based off. He started exactly where he ended in Justice 1.
Speaker 2:That's the point.
Speaker 1:I think that's the biggest problem. He's exactly the same person.
Speaker 2:I think, that's the biggest problem with a lot of these evil Superman characters is they kind of just stay the one course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even you know Batman also suffers from that, because if this is his old catalyst for this whole thing, essentially what he turns back into is prime Batman. And that because he goes back to just normal Batman-esque things during Injustice 2. Like the most compelling character, or the most compelling two characters are probably. I'll throw a third one. I was going to say it's I love what they do with Hal Jordan because they incorporate the. They have Emerald Twilight be like a thing that's canon in that universe.
Speaker 1:Like this happened, like he did, you know the Guardians were like you know you're going to have to do everything to kind of regain our trust and I can't let this slip back again to what happened. And then Barry as well, for because Barry kind of like stops being the flash for a while and he's just like I don't, I don't feel like this is the right thing, that people need help, and like you could start to see the bones of like hey, the Justice League are starting to reform a little bit. Because Barry's just like there's, I think they had to conceptualize like there's a greater threat than like us just fighting each other. So like why don't we team up? But, like you know, even if there were different battle lines. I guess, once you get to that then it turns into a civil war versus civil war two, and I guess nobody likes civil war two. So yeah, I can see it going in a lot of different directions that are difficult to handle.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I mean I would also say, Harley Quinn gets a lot of a lot to do and, like her relationship with the Joker is really closely examined.
Speaker 1:Blue Beetle is like Blue Beetle and Supergirl are like the two big additions to this thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, man, I might have to, I might have to boot the games back up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's. It's interesting because I feel like people think that Superman being evil is inherently cooler and I mean there's an element to that, there's an element of truth to that. Like, when you first see like an evil Superman archetype, you're like, oh, this is neat. But, if it doesn't develop to anything, it becomes really hollow and I think On Demand is a great example of the development paying off.
Speaker 1:Obviously, and as weird as this sounds and as counterintuitive as this sounds on, or homelander is almost, is also like, really, he's just so messed up where that's the whole point. He is that gone, like there was never, and it's like you made an incredible point. It is the humanity that turned him into that. It is the human nature of him and obviously you know he, his, his origin story is the opposite. Like he was made in a lab, like he's just this, you know this corporate front face guy, that's it. But he's, he's a vile human being. Beyond that, all those things, it's like it does kind of pay a little bit of like the boys comics are. You know they're very tough to read. They are very incredibly tough to get through because just the themes that they deal with alone are just like you can't. Just anybody that sits there and just reads straight through the boys. They've seen some stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're very and they're very extreme.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like they go the Mac like there's the line and then they say we'll just go 10 yards past the line and we're good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, but yeah man, I think. I think we, I think we, I think you. What you said about King Newcombe is is an excellent point, definitely something we should examine in the future, because that's that's oddly enough when like I said, when Superman is his, most compelling is how he remains to be himself, even in the wake of horrible things happening.
Speaker 2:Because, like, I think it's easy, it's easy to do the injustice thing, like this horrible thing happens to him and then he snaps right, that's, that's easy, that's simple, kind of simple notes to play. But like, what if? What, if all these bad things happen and he still shines through as the beacon of hope?
Speaker 2:Yep, that's infinitely more interesting, more compelling than just some maniac with superpowers. Right, because at the end of the day, like those are those, you get those stories all the time. Yeah, even if they aren't Superman, you still get a maniac with superpowers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know right.
Speaker 2:And I don't think any of them have really ever capitalized on the like, the true tragedy of. You know, if he had, if he had gone bad, how would it go? Like they just kind of turned me to a lunatic.
Speaker 1:I think I think one thing that you miss a little bit because of the way it's packaged into a video game is it's the, it's the world itself, like obviously the world changed Like, but I don't think it ever dived into like the the day to day for like one of these heroes, like imagine seeing like your hero just just get absolutely emotionally dismantled and like how are you supposed to take that Like? Are you supposed to take that as, like you know, we can kind of do whatever we want? Are you supposed to take that as, like none of us are safe? Like I wish they would have had a little bit more of like a moral implication to this whole thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good point because you know, the injustice game 10, the comics even more so, aren't really bothered bothered. But people like regular people, like it's more just about the heroes.
Speaker 1:Versus Kingdom Come is like Kingdom Come is through the eyes of a human, like it's through the eyes of just a person that's, you know, at some points bystanders, to like the absolute power of what superheroes can operate at and like, especially when they have no no, like morality, like how dangerous it could be to be around some of them. So, yeah, definitely, kingdom Come is definitely something that I think we should, we should definitely dive into because you know the, even the religious connotations, the, the religious imagery, I mean Alex Ross's art is just phenomenal. Just everything packaged in that story, I think, is, I think, is incredible, and there's a reason why Kingdom Come is, like, known as one of the greatest comics of all time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and it's. You know, it's one of the, it's one of the great counters to like Superman being born, which I think, like I said up top, is often the argument for like why people seem to enjoy these evil Superman characters and evil Superman stories is because they don't think Superman is interesting. But there's a lot of interesting stuff there about. Superman, you know, I think also our Superman dives headfirst into that kind of idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, the day we talk about all star Superman is like that's like a 200th episode type of thing, that's. That's I'll never forget when I, when I read all star Superman for the first time, it's just, it's one of those things like. There's a couple of comics I remember reading for the first time. I mean, silver Surfer Black is definitely a recent one where I was just like this is absolutely breathtaking and phenomenal. I mean, daredevil Born Again is a really solid one at that and I'm not joking this time, I'm being serious. But see it like. Daredevil Born Again was one. My all time favorite comic is Mr Miracle, the Tom King 2017. Mr Miracle. I can probably recite you direct lines from that thing. Like I, just that comic hit me the most out of anything I'd ever read. So I always like to say this comics are the dumbest thing, but they're also one of the greatest things that you can have.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, I totally agree. You know as we talked, when we talked about. You know when we talk about. We talked about a little bit in one of our previous episodes when we examined, like the Sandman stories too, like that's littered with with just stuff and just thematic, and that's all set within the confines of the DC Universe.
Speaker 1:And I mean you look, you look, I mean the big one is Washman is like the one of the corn. It's one of the turning points for for comics and for literature itself, in the way that we can and the idea that you know, some people were awakened to the fact that can we consume, like these comic images is like, and actually take this seriously. And if, for without Watchman we might have not had that, without the Dark Knight Returns, we might not have had any of these things. So you know, comics are so vast, there's so many different iterations and different things that you can explore. What's your favorite comic of all?
Speaker 2:time, my favorite comic of all time. We'll do this. What's?
Speaker 1:your favorite like character, that like character story, and then your favorite like team or like event and comic.
Speaker 2:I'm partial to as far as, like a team event comic I think I loved. I loved doing deeping, diving deep into Civil War. Yeah, I think Civil War, you know, on its surface, is an event that shouldn't work.
Speaker 1:It's hilarious that we're talking about injustice and then you bring up Civil War, because Civil War does it, in my opinion, a little better than injustice does.
Speaker 2:Well, because Civil War has that kind of that gray area. Yeah, Yep Of of you, don't both sides do horrible things?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yep, and it's something that that's the best point, it's one of the best points you just made. It's like both sides did really bad things, like I mean Thor kills, kills, goliath, like, and it's down to like the subtle things, like obviously that's a big battle death, but then also like Captain America hires the Punisher, hires the Punisher, like you know, I mean Sue leaves Reed, and like emotional, like that's how you put an emotional core in your story on top of that too. So and then how it affected the rest of the universe is really the thing that works for that. But as far as my favorite character.
Speaker 2:I'm looking at the book right now. It's Morpheus. Yeah, Might be a off the wall pick, you know, but I did a whole master's dissertation on Sam man. So that's a story that's always going to be near and dear to my heart. I could pick any type, any, I mean death was the character I particularly examined for that, for that, for that master's thesis.
Speaker 2:So the death character in Sam man is always going to be interesting, but Morpheus himself and his, his lived experience again you know it's funny that we're talking about like the evil Superman trope and how tragedy forged the regime Superman, like the Sam man, like Morpheus's origin is rooted in.
Speaker 2:the most awful thing happening to Morpheus is, you know, being imprisoned for decades losing his powers, you know, seeing how awful humanity is and he, he comes back kind of held, bent on revenge. It's not until he has the conversation with his sister, jeff, ironically enough, that he grows this appreciate humanity and it sets him on a different trajectory for the rest of eternity. Yeah, he's an immortal. So yeah, morpheus, that whole Sam man story is near and dear to my heart. It's my favorite comic graphic novel run of all time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. It is, truthfully, front to back, incredible. It's nuanced, it makes you think, makes you like it's not everything. And I mean that's how I feel about that Mr Miracle run. I mean just the the main theme of that whole story and it's so relatable, is he? It's Mr Miracle.
Speaker 1:So Mr Miracle's whole thing is he can escape from anything. And you know you're going through these retro comics and like the first couple panels, obviously you know it's like it's imagery that you're kind of seeing, you're seeing something that's not real. And then it opens up to like the first real page and he tries to take his own life in the first own page and then you know it's something that he has to deal with. For the rest of this whole comic is like this idea of like I can't like the one thing. I truthfully I can escape everything but I can't escape from life, like I can't escape from the things that happen to me in my life. And you know I love the idea of epics and I'm gonna that's what I'm going to talk about what my favorite event comic is, but just Mr Miracle as a character himself. You know, obviously Tom King himself imprinted a lot of himself onto that character, but it's the thing that you know. If somebody asked me, like what superhero movie would you make? I would not even blink to say I would make a Mr Miracle project in a second like it would be the first thing I would think of. I think it's one of the most emotionally resonant one that deals heavily in mental health. It's like it's just such an incredible run that I would recommend like I couldn't put it down when I picked it up for the first time. It's just, truthfully, one of the greatest things I'd ever read. And then the Hickman Avengers run is just is insane. It's just the definition of like. It's like it's everything you would want in a comic. It's got everything. It lasts like 240 issues. The only issue, the only problem with it is the way you have to read. It is a little cumbersome unless you have like the omnibuses. But besides that, it's just.
Speaker 1:You want to talk about like payoffs to something. Like it has one of the greatest payoffs to something, because usually it's tough to stick the landing. I mean, recent X-Men comics are a definition of like you had the thing going but then you kind of you know, monopolized off the thing that you had going, so you would just kind of let it run rampant. But like you knew that Hickman had that thing tight from start to. Like he knew exactly what he wanted, from issue one of Avengers and New Avengers all the way down to issue 12 of Secret Wars. Like he got everything that he ever wanted in there too.
Speaker 1:So just the way, like we talk about how crisis on Infinite Earths changed DC in 19, like this is what did for Marvel in the modern age. Like a lot of stuff that you see now is influenced because of what happens in Secret Wars too. So just an absolutely incredible story. I'll never forget that panel with Thor and Hyperion where they're they're facing the beyonders. There's a reason Dr Doom is the greatest villain of all time. There's a reason Stanley thought he was the greatest villain of all time. So and you know I love how it all boils down to it's just read versus, versus, versus Victor.
Speaker 2:That's all this story, truthfully, is so yeah, and I mean you know, I think oftentimes, especially in the wake of, you know, films and TV shows, like people look at comics and they see them as this like unassailable kind of thing. And I think my advice to anyone that like feels overwhelmed by that idea is just just find a kid, like pick a character and then just pick something.
Speaker 1:Yep, so I remember this is 2015. I hadn't read comics in a while and then I got back into reading comics and I was just like I don't know what to do. I was like this because I already had known so much and I was like, but I took too much of a break. I had only been able to read as many comics as I could with, you know, kid money and like you know what I mean and like, no way to like read them properly and no comic shop to go through. So I was just like you know what I'm doing, I'm going on Amazon and I'm getting flash rebirth because I loved it, like I knew the flash, I love the flash. And then it was just, it was on from there.
Speaker 1:Maybe one day, on the on the page, I'll post my comic collection, but I, the first one I bought with my own adult money or not adult, but own kid money was was flash rebirth. And then the rest was history off of that, and it's just just one story about, like the triumph and you know what makes Barry Allen. Barry Allen started, like you know, rekindled my love for this thing too. So, yeah, I think that's a that's a great like.
Speaker 2:Just a great thing is just, you know, don't be intimidated by, I think, people, I think in the wake of you know, movies and TV shows, and people are obsessed with the canon. Yes, yep, yep.
Speaker 1:So, like you know, they're like okay I want to do.
Speaker 2:I want to read about this character. Like what, what do I need to start with? I'm like you don't have to start anywhere. Yeah, like that's, the beauty of comics is like, yes, like you have these certain runs that obviously have a continuity, but other than that you can mostly just pick it up and just enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Give me a character, I'll tell somebody where to start. You make it simple. Yeah, I mean Superman. Alright, so you can read all star Superman if you want like just a great. If you want a great Superman story about what the core of Superman is, you read all star Superman. If you want like a, if you want a story that might be a little bit more adult, that you know somebody that's older might read its kingdom, come if you, you could go read secret origin Superman.
Speaker 1:If you want like a cool, smaller sect of his life early on, you can read the new 52 run of Superman. There's action comics and Superman running at the same time. You could read some event comics. You could read the death of Superman and what spawned and how big of a character he. They were covering it on the news when Superman died. That's how big of a character he is. So you can go six. You could start from the beginning in the in 1939 if you want to, but you have, you can go anywhere and you could read anything and you'll kind of get gay. True, superman is based off it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I would agree. Um, plastic man no, I'm kidding Plastic man, but I mean that's the other thing about you know, like you talked about, like your, your connection to Mr Miracle, like that's the other cool thing about comics is you can also like I mean, with the advent of the internet it's even easier now Like you can just type like comics about dot dot dot, like your, your, your interests, and just like music, like what's your mood, like um, I can't remember how I stumbled upon Mr Miracle, but I'm just, I'm infinitely glad I did.
Speaker 1:And then Silver server, black recently, like I said, like that one it's different but very similar in the way where it deals with, like the weight of the situation. To like there's a panel in Mr Miracle that's like ingrained into my brain, where because for those of you that don't know Mr Miracle is the son of High Father. And then who was it? Dark side had um, had Orion, and then they swapped so they can have peace in the one sea. Comics are idiotic, like they're stupid, so they swap sons. So essentially, mr Miracle is the son of dark, of dark side. And there's this panel where, like Mr Miracle essentially has to lead the new gods into war against apocalypse and like he's sitting there and then the panel cuts to like his son being born in like a, like a sitcom x piece of, like a birth of a child. It's just like the weight of the world on this guy's shoulder and what he can only worry about is his son. Like things like that are just so simple. But what make these things so great?
Speaker 1:But in terms of diving into stuff, it's just find what you? What mood are you in? Are you in for an epic Like do you want to read something grand, go find Civil War, go find secret invasion, go find crisis on infinity, there's go. If you want a character but you want an epic, go find one of the rebirth, not the new rebirth, the old rebirth, like Green Lantern rebirth, flash rebirth new 52 is an incredible place If you want something that's modern, because you know older comics can be a little bit daunting.
Speaker 1:So if you want something that's modern, like go read the new 52, go read all new, all different Marvel, like there's points for you to hit. But you can just Google it, you can find there's literally websites that have the canon of every character where new volumes start, which writers writing it to so favorite comic writer You'll game and you'll game and is yeah, probably. I would say I mean I have to put Tom King there because he wrote my favorite comic, but I guess recently. I would say it's probably Donnie Kate's, because how, like Marvel thought Donnie Kate's was the goal. I mean, he was the goal, he had the keys to the castle for all modern Marvel comics, essentially like everything was running through his stories.
Speaker 1:I, who I just feel like Mark Wade, has done a lot of good things, a lot amongst three like four different types of universes. I think Mark Wade is kind of stands the test of time because how long he's been writing since what? The late 80s, and he's still writing. So Mark Wade is like you can find me a character and Mark Wade's probably worked on that character at some point. So that shows you how good he was and how sustainable he was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean favorite artist. Oh man, I love God this. I just love Alex.
Speaker 1:Ross's. I mean he is the gold standard for for comic artists Like that, like that hyper.
Speaker 2:It's amazing, yeah, it's amazing to look at like that.
Speaker 1:Just hyper realistic yeah it's amazing that someone do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was like like a pen and yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean you know who I really like in the modern age, I really like Gary Frank. If you ever doomsday clock was drawn by Gary Frank, like he also had obviously nothing's going to touch what Alex Ross does, because he does like actual water cut all like all those things. But just the way Gary Frank kind of he kind of marries modern with the, the OG stuff like the 80s and 70s designs on like modern art on top of it, it's just it's a really good pairing. So I mean I mean Steve Ditko also.
Speaker 2:Steve Ditko is one of the I mean he's one of the I mean the probably the biggest comic book artists.
Speaker 1:You know who I really like, if you ever find his art is. Gabriel Delotto does a lot of great art too. I you know who I particularly like to, and it was the. I particularly like the new 52 Batman, greg Capullo. His art on Batman was was really well done too. I think he also worked on the new 52 flash, if I'm not mistaken. Comics are, comics are great. Comics are great when they're not stupid. They're great. Even when they are stupid, they're still great. So most underrated comic.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good one. It was underrated, I honestly. I honestly. It's less underrated now because what's going on on TV, but I think for the time that it came out invincible just flew way under the. Redock especially since I think most people don't even know Robert Kirkman did it. Yeah, yep.
Speaker 2:He's so associated with the walking dead. So I would say, you know, it's less so now, but at the time when it came out, invincible I mean think it's visible, still underrated, even in the sense of in the confines of TV, I think it's still. The comic itself is still underrated, because now people are just just flocked to the flock, to the TV shows. But yeah, I would say, I would say invincible is pretty underrated, that's good.
Speaker 1:That is good stuff. Woof, I'm gonna. Am I allowed to say astonishing X-Men, even though Joss Whedon wrote it? Yeah, you're allowed to say it. Yeah, astonishing X-Men is an incredible place to start reading X-Men, because what the X-Men? A lot of the live action X-Men stuff pulls from, pulls from after that run like the. Some of the newer ish stuff comes from that too, so that's really good. I actually did like our spider Spider-Man life story. That we did.
Speaker 2:That we did officially, unofficially did like that one's really great Um you know it's a good, a good one. Um, if you want something that, if you want a character and a story that's truly underrated the century.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm gonna add another. Oh, okay, so I'm gonna add this. I've got to find me saying it somewhere. That was the. If I had a Marvel character I was going to do it would have been the century. It was Mr Miracle I was. I always had said it would have been Silver Surfer. You want to talk about a character with mental health problems? Yes, I mean, he is mental health essentially. Yeah, he's the embodiment of mental health.
Speaker 2:But yeah, the century. If you've ever read, if you want to read it, this a just a just a sad story about, about a man dealing with Chargillum mental health and becomes a superhero. Read Paul Jenkins. Yeah, century run because Woof. Yeah, you want to talk about needing to be in a certain mindset? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Man, it's crazy that comic gets so, so insane. It's ridiculous. The I guess the last thunder I definitely want to shout out X Force, the, yeah, the uncanny X force by Rick Remender. That the first apocalypse arc is is amazing. It is phenomenal, like I, the fact that, like you, make one change, and the one change they make is they made Deadpool the emotional core of the of the X Force and it made the comic like infinitely better. So who is it?
Speaker 1:Angel? It's Park Angel, sylocke, wolverine, deadpool, and who am I missing? I'm missing somebody, wolverine, oh, and in phantom X, in phantom X, so the five of them essentially, and it's a. They do the baby Hitler thing, like do you go back in time and kill baby Hitler? And it's, it is the. Just the opening arc of that is just, it's so amazing. The arts great. So definitely highly recommend uncanny X men by Rick Remender and then, like I said, justice is by Jim Kruger is just, it's really good, really good. Prime classic DC stuff were just good versus evil great stuff. And that's comics. We actually reviewed every comic.
Speaker 2:We did it, we did talk. Yeah, we actually went through every comic.
Speaker 1:Did we talk? Did we ever talk about disease? Not properly Remember when, like our friend group, all read deceased, and it was. We had one book and we read, we all read it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know about an elsewhere story that works, you know, compared to what's injustice? That DC story is nuts, it's.
Speaker 1:it's so like you just feel bad reading disease. You're like I don't feel good about myself right now.
Speaker 2:This feels horrible, no.
Speaker 1:But it's, it's, it's great, it's so good, that's like that.
Speaker 2:That didn't Marvel just do a thing.
Speaker 1:Not just do a thing.
Speaker 2:A zombie thing like a not like a song, no, it wasn't like a zombie thing, it was. It was basically like every, every superhero like, had their like their origin story. But like what? Like horribly wrong.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're talking about. You're talking about X. Yeah, yeah, like Spider-Man is just like a like a mutant. Yeah, he's just like a like physically a mutant, like there's some horrible things happen to other characters too.
Speaker 2:So that definitely doesn't make you feel good either. No, the silver surfer tears himself open in space and dies.
Speaker 1:Just real bad stuff happens to a lot of people. It's really upsetting. I mean, the darkest night was I remember when I was a kid. Darkest night was like the biggest thing that could ever happen. I don't know why Vivulu remember this, but I was going to the store with my dad and I had a flash shirt on and the Home Depot workers like nice shirt, and I was like thanks, he's just like you read comics. He's like I was like I try, and he was just like you got to read Darkest Night and I was, or Blackest Night, and I read it and I was like this is this is this is metal, this is crazy. And that man was Jeff Jones. Now, but he was Jeff Jones. I was going to say Jeff Jones because of how many contributions he made, but Jeff Jones trying to sell you his own comic book yeah, it was. I think I was at Home Depot. Why was Jeff Jones at Home Depot?
Speaker 2:Because he wasn't selling enough copies of Blackest Night.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you, are you sure to sell? And I was. I actually bought a million copies and kept him in business. You know, it's two good ones. Vision, like the vision, what's it called? Vision, but he has a family. Yes, vision, but that's actually the name of the comic division, but he has a family. Just kidding, but seriously, I do quite enjoy that. That vision run by also Tom King. Then Tom King can write he's good at his job, sure, can write. And then Tom King almost almost got obliterated when they did the. When they did. What was the thing? Oh, heroes in crisis Boy, did that get controversial? What do you mean? Wally West is actually the villain.
Speaker 2:Oh man, yeah, that's that's. That's that's where we're at.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good point to stop. Yeah, why is Wally West? The villain, said oh, I can't say anything, just kidding.
Speaker 2:Why is Superman the villain?
Speaker 1:Because because more interesting is what they say more.
Speaker 2:More. You want more, more or less evil Superman.
Speaker 1:I know I do most overrated comic. I know I don't like to do these types of things, but most overrated I got, I think.
Speaker 2:I think the subsequent sequels render the Dark Knight returns a little over sure. Sure, because the sequels are nonsense. Yeah, someone should put Frank Miller in a box after the first one, definitely after the second one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't even say that doomsday clock is overrated, because I feel like a lot of people don't like doomsday clock anyway, so I guess it's overrated.
Speaker 1:It's overrated in the sense that, like of what it was promised, as like the Watchmen are are are here, are the Watchmen are in and Superman is going to take. Look, look, dr Manhattan would have just annihilated I'm sorry, he just would have torn him from the fabric of reality. It's fine, it's fine to say that I don't know, I quite think that the crisis on infinite Earth's is kind of overrated. I just think it was a thing that like for lack of a better term it was. I mean, it's nonsense. Well, that's why it's just absolute, just just, it's just bonkers. Things just start, things just start happening and like, if you want to talk about like a crisis on it, like the Hickman handled it better in the modern age than than more wolf bit, like than any of them could have done in the in the in the 80s like certainly nonsense it is.
Speaker 2:It's just, it's a lot. It's a lot, man, I'll do, I'll do you, I'll do you on better, I'll bring this back to where it started. I think injustice is a little bit overrated.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, we agree on that, so that's fine. They were an old comic, we got to go, man, but I'm having fun, so this is fun. What do you mean? Oh, what do you mean by that Like, okay, pre pre grunge age, so you can't like? So I guess? I guess, as Royale is like the middle child in this as well, and cable are the middle children in this man.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say I think I'm going. I think I'm going with another Superman story. This man can't help himself, superman. If you ever read Alan Moore, superman, whatever happened to the man?
Speaker 1:tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Yep, whoo Good stuff, that's good stuff. And that it's funny because you said you know, going off talking about Christ on Infinite Earth like this is pretty much like a swan song to the pre-crisis Superman. It's a really good, it's really good.
Speaker 1:It was like all star.
Speaker 2:Superman before all star Superman, basically like. It's basically like a love letter to the Silver Age Superman and it's really good, that's good stuff.
Speaker 1:It's, it is daredevil born again. I mean it just it just is.
Speaker 1:I can't help myself I can't, but it's the truth like it is. It is a great. You know what? Just because I I can't, I don't want to double down because I've said it enough.
Speaker 1:The uncanny X-Men, like the, this is like the turning point for the X-Men, like just so you guys know, like people didn't care about the, like Cyclops, jean Grey, cyclops, jean Grey, iceman, beast Angel Nobody cared about them. Like it was to the point where they threw them on Kereco and that's when you got who was it. It was Banshee, wolverine, storm Colossus, like Thunderbird, like those are the X-Men, like those, the uncanny X-Men. Like I remember reading it and just like opening it up because I got the omnibus, because I was like I really want to start reading like X-Men, like front to back, and somebody's just like don't read issue one through 63. Like just start with the. Why am I forgetting his name? That literally made the X-Men the X-Men.
Speaker 1:But they were like start with start with that. Don't start start with issue 75. I think it happens in the uncanny X-Men and it's so much better. And can't agree. Can't agree that it's great. Even the origin stories, like clunky dialogue, whatever, like the giant size X-Men. Like 75 on is like really like all the story arcs. You pull from the X-Men, like get pulled from that. So you do. You it's like giant size, and then you get to the 90s and then the 90s are the 90s.
Speaker 2:So I love the 90s. Oh man, remember the time venom? Come on, man. He dressed up like a nun and fought a bunch of terrorists. Could we?
Speaker 1:adapt that. I mean favorite non-marveler DC. You want to do it on three?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna say invincible okay, I guess we can do it on three. Yeah, alright, three, two, one. Umbrella Academy oh yeah, yeah, the Umbrella Academy is especially that. First, that first arc is just it's, it's so good. It's so good. The art, I love how. I love how like subtly crass it is to like it's not to the it. Obviously it doesn't touch anything of where the boys goes, but it is very well done and obviously it's really cool that Gerard way did it.
Speaker 1:So that's fun and that's comics help life oh yeah, help always good, help, always good stuff. Spawn, spawn, yeah, I mean spawn was to the point where they had to get them with with spider, or they had to get them with in a crossover with the with a couple people. I feel like at this point we're just looking at comics that we like to just say something about it.
Speaker 2:So we got to save some for another episode. Yeah, so anything else, anything else on Superman evil, superman, quit it, quit it. Do them less, yeah, do it less. Do it less. What we got, what?
Speaker 1:we got is fine. Yeah, do more. Do more Kingdom come as in all-star Superman, as superman well, we got it's fine.
Speaker 2:They can carry the torch for a while. Do some? Do some more regular Superman or new Superman? Mm-hmm, that's gonna do it for us this week.
Speaker 1:Superman saying to save the multiverse and final crisis. That's. That's a real thing. That happened. Comics are so dumb.
Speaker 2:I'm the, I'm the Superman.
Speaker 1:Now is what he said and they started saying are they singing the?
Speaker 2:real. The real friends were the Superman that we made along the way evil superman.
Speaker 1:The real friends are the villain.
Speaker 2:Villain is superman we made along the way that's gonna do for us this week. You can follow us on Twitter at project I not my news for pod. You can follow us on Facebook. You can follow us on Instagram. That's project infinite pod next week.
Speaker 1:We don't know we don't know it's gonna be a. It's pointing towards Kingdom come is what it's really. Yeah, that that could be it.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, tune in next week for a very comic or gaming related thing from me, from the careful it's a rough week.
Speaker 1:It's a rough week for this. Just don't say Calvin Ellis.
Speaker 2:I mean, either way, you're getting a bad, a bad rep here yeah, it's not gonna be great by the end of this.
Speaker 1:Don't say Holmlander, that's just do comic Holmlander like me, like, if you believe in the death penalty, like comic Holmlander needs to be, like he needs to be murdered, and he is murdered actually so, but then he does come back and then the clone.
Speaker 2:Oh man, read more comics, because lord from the from the, the omniman of the podcast, not good, it's not good, not great.
Speaker 1:Great mustache though, oh nice the one redeeming quality nice. I'm gonna get a mustache now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm in my mustache arc so thanks for thanks for listening this week. Until then we'll we'll see you next week. Good bye, peace.