Send us a message that we can respond to at the end of every episode!
The golden age superheroes have retired, and a new generation, who barely recognize the concept of consequences, now protect the world, Join us, as we embark on a journey through the pages of DC's 1996 epic: 'Kingdom Come', featuring the exquisite artwork by Alex Ross written by Mark Waid. We examine a universe where Superman returns from his retirement, pulling together the old Justice League members to counter the reckless actions of new heroes.
We'll evaluate the fraught relationship between Batman and Superman, and the heartbreaking sacrifice that the Man of Steel is pushed to make. You'll feel Wonder Woman's indomitable spirit, Batman's cynicism, and Superman's struggle to reconcile the two sides.
We discuss the evil Superman trope, and the implications of his god-like status in 'Kingdom Come'. We'll ponder the ethical dilemmas that lie within, highlighting our favorite moments, most underrated characters, and favorite panels. We'll help you understand the depths and dimensions of the superhero narrative and leave you with a fresh appreciation for the complexity of these characters. Whether you're a comic book veteran or a newcomer, this episode promises an enthralling immersion into the world of 'Kingdom Come'.
00:00 Intro
03:41 Discussing DC’s “Kingdom Come” Comic
39:50 Wrapping Up With Our Favorite Moments, Lines, Characters & PANELS
01:00:37 Signing Off & Topic for Next Week (Who Knows?)
Email the pod at projectinfinitepod@gmail.com
Tweet us/Follow at https://twitter.com/ProjectInf_Pod
Follow on Facebook
Follow on Instagram at theprojectinfinitepod
Follow Court’s Film on Instagram @untilnexttimefilm
Twitter for Rob https://twitter.com/R_Peck0628
Twitter for Courtney https://twitter.com/courtkid123
In the wake of the tragic death of Power Ranger actor Jason David Frank, from this episode on, the number for the Suicide and Crisis Prevention Hotline will be displayed here: 9-8-8. It's that simple. Call or text that number to be instantly sourced to a crisis counselor. Speak with someone today if you feel alone and need help.
Send us a message that we can respond to at the end of every episode!
The golden age superheroes have retired, and a new generation, who barely recognize the concept of consequences, now protect the world, Join us, as we embark on a journey through the pages of DC's 1996 epic: 'Kingdom Come', featuring the exquisite artwork by Alex Ross written by Mark Waid. We examine a universe where Superman returns from his retirement, pulling together the old Justice League members to counter the reckless actions of new heroes.
We'll evaluate the fraught relationship between Batman and Superman, and the heartbreaking sacrifice that the Man of Steel is pushed to make. You'll feel Wonder Woman's indomitable spirit, Batman's cynicism, and Superman's struggle to reconcile the two sides.
We discuss the evil Superman trope, and the implications of his god-like status in 'Kingdom Come'. We'll ponder the ethical dilemmas that lie within, highlighting our favorite moments, most underrated characters, and favorite panels. We'll help you understand the depths and dimensions of the superhero narrative and leave you with a fresh appreciation for the complexity of these characters. Whether you're a comic book veteran or a newcomer, this episode promises an enthralling immersion into the world of 'Kingdom Come'.
00:00 Intro
03:41 Discussing DC’s “Kingdom Come” Comic
39:50 Wrapping Up With Our Favorite Moments, Lines, Characters & PANELS
01:00:37 Signing Off & Topic for Next Week (Who Knows?)
Email the pod at projectinfinitepod@gmail.com
Tweet us/Follow at https://twitter.com/ProjectInf_Pod
Follow on Facebook
Follow on Instagram at theprojectinfinitepod
Follow Court’s Film on Instagram @untilnexttimefilm
Twitter for Rob https://twitter.com/R_Peck0628
Twitter for Courtney https://twitter.com/courtkid123
In the wake of the tragic death of Power Ranger actor Jason David Frank, from this episode on, the number for the Suicide and Crisis Prevention Hotline will be displayed here: 9-8-8. It's that simple. Call or text that number to be instantly sourced to a crisis counselor. Speak with someone today if you feel alone and need help.
It's the Infinite.
Speaker 2:Podcast Go tell your friends it's the Infinite Podcast, my God he never ends it's the Infinite Podcast, we're driving towards the Cube. Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Project Infinite Podcast, the podcast covering the infinite and an ever-expanding multiverse of fandom For movies, comics, TV shows, video games. We got you covered. I'm Rob. I'm here, as always, with Cort and Cort we're doing another comic this week. Another comic thing.
Speaker 1:Look at us now Full transition, but couldn't be happier because comics are a huge piece of both of our lives, both of our creative lives, so really happy to dive into this week DC's Kingdom Come 1996, Mark Wade, drawn by the absolutely incredible Alex Ross. You come for the Alex Ross art, but you stay for what unfolded out to be an incredible story.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So last week we talked about the evil Superman trope in comics and we noted most notably that Kingdom Come is like the antithesis of that, where, historically, with these evil Superman tropes, we have a Superman that has been aggrieved by some event or circumstance and that causes him to turn evil, or he ship lends in the wrong place and he becomes evil, or whatever the case may be. But this, the Kingdom Come, obviously, is a situation where Superman becomes aggrieved and then retires in lieu of becoming evil, or does he? Dot dot dot, yeah, man. So I mean the backstory on this comic is it's an Elseworld story, so it's kind of outside the regular DC continuity of the time. It's a four issue miniseries written by Wade and Ross. Obviously, ross did all the artwork for it, which you know to this day is probably the gold standard of comic book artwork yeah, I could probably hold this comic and be like this is the single greatest drawn comic book of all time.
Speaker 1:Like, I can very well make that claim.
Speaker 2:And I mean the cool thing about this comic is we kind of talked about at the end of last episode of like people, not comics not necessarily being terribly accessible and people not knowing where to start. This one you can just pretty much pick up and get it, because it's an Elseworld story. If you're even vaguely familiar with the heroes that are involved in the story, you can understand it and you can read it and, you know, take it in.
Speaker 2:So I think you know. As far as accessibility, this is one of the more accessible comics that can exist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the only thing I'll say to that is this probably is a little bit more, not in terms of the maturity level, but just some of the verbiage and dialogue they have in here. It is a little bit more mature. It is something that your reading level probably will have to be a little bit more developed to kind of consume this one, because you know, as we say, comics are stupid and dumb. But sometimes you can get stuff like this, stuff like Watchmen, where it's like you know, this is a little bit more mature. This is supposed to target a little bit more of an older audience.
Speaker 2:Yep, and it does a lot of things. It's mature, but it also, you know, I think the through line of it is intended to kind of close the chapter on these darker comics in the sense, and kind of elevate comics back to kind of the fun and fantasy kind of stories is what I think the aim of this comic serves to do. Short of that, I mean, we can just talk about it now. So obviously it's set in the future of the DC universe. The Justice League has all gone their separate ways, they've all retired. Basically because of an event that transpired where the Joker you know the Joker, up to the Joker things he commits a mass murder of the daily planet, killing Lois Lane and 92 people.
Speaker 2:I believe something like that he is. He's thwarted and killed by a hero named.
Speaker 1:McGog. Yeah, so essentially what you have is this like you said, the younger, the Justice League retired, they all of that, most of them were, you know, kind of older at this point. I mean, we pick up with Batman, dynapht and Oliver. They're all older, like they're all in their 70s to 80s at this point, and this is 10 years, so they were already all older by this point.
Speaker 1:So you have this new wave of superheroes, that kind of stepped in, these new wave of you know younger people, whether they be legacy, whether they be, you know in, in lieu of you know older characters that they take the mantle of, whether they be the children of some of these heroes, whatever it may be. You have these younger heroes, that kind of step in place, and McGog is essentially, you know, he kind of is, you know, propped up, as after this event, as the new not the new Superman, but somebody that can take his place as the voice for them, like the you know the face for them. Essentially. So McGog kills the Joker and Superman, you know, kind of goes into exile, exile, after this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but not for the reasons that you think. It's not because of Lois dying, it's not because of you know the crime that transpired. It's the fact that McGog kills the Joker and then the people of Metropolis on board.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like they're. The people of the world, essentially, are like good, like he's been wreaking havoc for how long and he's gone now Like there's, we don't have to deal with this anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a panel that shows like a newspaper of voting and it's. You know, who do you basically, who do you trust to save the city of Metropolis? Mcgog or Superman, and McGog is overwhelming, overwhelming, the overwhelming film favorite. And that's kind of like the backstory to this, to this comic, because where it starts is with our protagonist, norman McKay. Is the is the basically the main character of Kingdom come.
Speaker 1:He's our point of view character essentially, which is, I think that's such a smart approach to take. I mean, obviously and we said this last week the story is drenched in religious connotations, and that's where it starts.
Speaker 2:Right, he's, he's reciting stuff to a man named Wesley Dodds, who, I wonder who that is? Yeah, if you're, if you're a, you know, a comic historian. Wesley Dodds is the surname of the of the Sandman in DC Comics in the 30s. So, yeah, so Wesley Dodds is dying and Wesley Dodds is bestowing upon him these apocalyptic visions of the future and McKay is like what is happening? Right? And then he's at the church. He's looking, you know, doing, doing some church, doing church.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is his funeral, essentially. So Wesley dies their at his funeral. And who shows up?
Speaker 2:Well, behold the specter, and angel faces through the walls and it is the specter, jim Corrigan, the specter, and he's like hello, hello, hello. Norman, my man, my main man, how would you like to to judge the world? Yeah, norman's like no he's like what?
Speaker 1:this doesn't make any sense. What's going on? He's just like just come with me, we're going to go visit somebody. And who did they visit? Superman on the farm Cal-L, not Clark Kent. Clark Kent is gone at this point to the point where he gets upset when Wonder Woman shows up to kind of see him. And I love that little bit where he's kind of whispering and the specter's like he can't hear you, he can't like. This is how powerful I am. He can't. He doesn't know that we're here. He can't?
Speaker 2:He has Norman basically outside of time and space kind of literally being an observer to everything that's unfolding and the specter's whole role is like just be ominous. Yeah, it's basically the specter's role in this. When Norman's like something bad going to happen, the specter's like hang on.
Speaker 1:So Wonder Woman shows up to Superman, she's just like these kids are getting absolutely out of control. We need you. Like I can only do so much. Bruce is never coming back to this. Like we need you specifically. You know for lack of a better term you're the reason that we're here. Like you're kind of the like you don't realize that it's not just your physical prowess, it's your meaning to the world. Was the fact that we had such a handle on things and you're gone and now there's no collateral damage is not a thing to them. They don't care about the lives that they take. I think there's even a panel in here where there's a fight with the younger generation and they're just, or what do they call themselves the Justice Battalion? And they're just. They're kind of laughing in the face of like people being killed and innocent people being killed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I mean, I mean the thing that kind of sets kind of things over the edges is an incident in Kansas but where McGog kind of heft it yeah, lack of a better word they were. This new group of heroes was battling a parasite, parasite and parasite was done.
Speaker 1:He was trying to surrender Like he was, like I'm, I'm done and my God, you know, using that same reference that he had for the Joker, like this is you now so, like this is this is who you are. You need to act like it. So, but, god, you know, or parasite, like in a blast fit of like survivalism, like splits, captain Adam, and you know, splitting the atom creates a nuclear bomb. Yeah, you see, mark, you see what I did there. And then our radiates, kansas, parts of Nebraska. So kills millions of people. Yeah, and not only do you kill millions of people on impact, you now just took out the heart of all the agriculture in the entire country with you. So that's going to have lasting effects for for much more time past that as well.
Speaker 2:And Superman's like fine, yeah, I guess. So Superman springs back into action. He recruits a bunch of the old Justice leaders. We're introduced them. I love the way that the, the kind of core Justice League members are introduced. Yeah, sorry, as we talked about like the DC characters before being like these, these gods amongst men.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's how. That's a theme I want to hit when we're at the end of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's how they're presented when we kind of get there like their splash page intros.
Speaker 1:They're at the God level at this point, like this is where they're like. Breed lantern essentially makes like this, this dome.
Speaker 2:Not this dome, but like this and more palace, yeah, this.
Speaker 1:Emerald Fortress that he kind of patrols the, patrols the galaxy with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the Alan Scott Green Lantern who's been Green Lantern for decades and he's reached kind of he is. He basically becomes the embodiment of the Green Lantern Ring, like he can pretty much do anything Right.
Speaker 1:We have the flash. Yeah, I like this one. So you know, you know it's Wally West, because they're in Keystone and it was the late 90s, so obviously it was Wally West, but he'd kind of found a way to patrol the select. He's perpetual motion at this point, like he doesn't stop, he's just kind of always in motion throughout this entire, the entirety of Keystone City. So in reality, in reality too, yeah, so, yeah.
Speaker 2:We have Hawkman is kind of like the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 1:He's patrolling and he's go. What is it he's? He's for any crimes that are against the earth itself. He'll kind of deal with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's like a, yeah, he's like a sentinel of environmental justice. And then obviously, we have one woman in Superman and then Arthur Curry Aquaman we meet later.
Speaker 1:Right Went back into the ocean at that point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So I really like the way that they did. They introduce the Justice League is like these, was it? Luther says later that the gods have stepped off of Olympus is essentially how the Justice League is presented in this, where they come in and everyone's like, oh, shoot, yeah, yeah. And then obviously the one, the one, the one outlier is Batman, who Superman goes to visit and Superman's like, hey, man, I'm getting the, I'm getting the band back together.
Speaker 1:And Batman's like absolutely not get lost.
Speaker 2:I could care less. Like you left, yeah, and like this is you know the seeds of your soul, basically from from you leaving and is this result? Like you knew this could happen and left anyway, right. And you know that's. You know that's Batman in a nutshell. And he said you know, you know your, your idealism is going to doom the world, basically because it's just going to make things worse. Like what do you think you're going to do? Like you think you're going to change their minds? That's like that's not going to happen, right. And the Superman's like all right, well worth the shot, right. And then these other, you know these other humans, basically that former superheroes that Batman has stayed close to. So Oliver Queen, dinah, lance, ted Cord, all kind of step out of the shadows and they're like, oh boy, yeah, we're all old now. This kind of sucks, we're all old now, meanwhile, meanwhile, at the Hall of Justice or the Hall of Injustice rather.
Speaker 2:Lex Luthor has put together a group of of former villains Yep.
Speaker 1:Current villains and like corporatized villains essentially, yeah, and they're all like you know we're going to. What is it the humanitarian?
Speaker 2:mankind liberation front.
Speaker 1:Mankind liberation front.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're, they're, they're, they get together. They're like hey man, superman is back. You know, this is, things are going to kick off. Lex Luthor's like don't worry, I got a plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you guys would just pan to your left and you would see Shazam standing next to me in a suit. Shazam is a vastly important piece to this story. I, you know, upon kind of revisiting this. I love the way they kind of handle Shazam and also it's the perfect way to show this whole narrative thread of the, of this idea of Superman, like how he not physically, but like you know how much of a leader he is to them, like just the conceit behind Billy Batson is Superman is the person he tries to mimic when he turns into Shazam. Like having that be the one like you easily and it does happen McGoggin Superman fight, but having it be Billy Batson to be the one that fights Superman is just such a smart move in the last part of the story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Justice League Bill is a prison in the irradiated Kansas called the Gulag. Hilarious If you're yeah. I mean, if you, if you're, if your goal Superman is to, to reinstate the idea that you're hoping truth and justice, maybe don't name your super prison the Gulag. Yeah, but okay, man, what do I know they're? They're just taking people, basically, off the streets and throwing them in there.
Speaker 1:So he gives them the choice. That's either you join me, like you will, you're gonna join the Justice League proper, or else, like you're, we're gonna, by force, we're gonna, we're gonna take you down.
Speaker 2:Yeah and then I mean, obviously one of the kind of you know staples of this is McGog himself and they come to a confrontation of. Mcgog is like you know it's. It's like what did you do, superman? Yeah, what did you do?
Speaker 1:What did you do? Like imagine that you know anything that you any piece of. You know the media that you can find where it's like you're. You're washed, essentially, like not yourself, your morals are washed. You're like you're this whole sense of morality for you doesn't matter to anything. Like I, you know I killed the Joker.
Speaker 1:Now what I like is there's this piece of like you can feel McGog kind of gets the fact that he killed the Joker and like maybe he wasn't the figurehead that he, that he wants to be in this, but you know, lo and behold, it is him that has to be the one. So it's just like I took care of a problem that you and Batman and the league refused to do because you guys had these. You know the sense of morality, but, like you know, the other side of the coin is you know, look what this got us to. Like you guys are going out in the streets and patrolling and like you guys are murderers, essentially because you could like a murder to them, to the old Justice League would be like you won't save innocent people. You're only going to take down guilty parties like there's. You need to find a find a balance between the two yeah, and you know they kind of it's.
Speaker 2:It's kind of a an unintentionally hilarious standoff, like you really get to see the discrepancy here. Like McGog fires a blast from his fear that you know, graze a Superman, but he's still standing and he's like all right, well, you blew it yeah basically um, and then they. So basically now the gulag is getting over the failure, it's gonna fill up. It's becoming this pressure cooker, because there's not just heroes in there. It's villains in there also, and Superman's like all right, we gotta figure out what we're gonna do now. So they go to apocalypse yep, they go to apocalypse.
Speaker 2:Superman visits Orion because dark side's long gone. He's been usurped by Orion. Good job, orion. And Superman's like hey, how's it going? Man on over here? Yeah, everything looks the same. Yeah. Ryan's like yep, it does, yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like Orion's just very lonely on apocalypse like and.
Speaker 2:Superman's like well, if you're lonely, how about this? I?
Speaker 1:got all these. It's like the trade-off for tiktoks. It's like you get a prison bowl of corrupt heroes and super villains. I get to not have a prison of corrupt super villains, super villains.
Speaker 2:But then Orion's like okay, yeah, bring him, bring him here, whatever. And then Superman kind of like does like a look around and he's like this could go wrong yeah, it's a bad idea.
Speaker 1:Seal it and.
Speaker 2:Ryan and Ryan's like all right, peace out.
Speaker 1:Remember all those times we had together, remember the fourth world and stuff. I love the fact that also scott free helps helps him build the gulag as well, because the man can escape from anything.
Speaker 2:So that's the person I would probably want to make in a prison it's like a stolen movie where he builds the prison, oh yeah, builds the prison that he can't escape, or whatever. Oh yeah, um yeah. Then they go to Atlantis. They visit their old pal Aquaman and Arthur Curry's, like get lost.
Speaker 1:Yeah, get lost. I love that. That all those other, like some of the Justice League members, like Superman, leave me alone. I don't care, take one or women, go, go kick rocks.
Speaker 2:I also love the idea that he's like, he goes like. He's like I'm the king of Atlantis and you guys relegated to me to being basically like the fish person right of the.
Speaker 1:Justice League like get lost. Yeah, jerks, look at this, look at my king, look at that gold, look at that pearl down there.
Speaker 2:This is awesome down here um, and then that's the thing where he kind of throws. He throws it at Wonder Woman like you got kicked off of Paradise Island, and Superman's like you what? And he's like. He's basically saying like you, you, you, you messed up like. That's why the Amazons don't want you there anymore. Right, wonder Woman's? Like I wasn't gonna bring that up.
Speaker 1:But that's superman, not to my love interest.
Speaker 2:Superman superman's like what happened? And she was like, yeah, that's basically what happened. Like they stripped me of my boils, my royalty, my title, everything kicked me off the island because they said, you know, I didn't achieve my mission basically, which was peace on earth right.
Speaker 1:You know, and I mean this is where the religious connotations that like this is essentially. You know, what's happening is its judgment day, is what they're working towards. It and the interpretation of it through Mark Wade and through this DC landscape is like you know, this idea of peace on earth cannot be achieved because the humans are going to destroy themselves, like the whole idea. The Justice League and all the people that are enveloped in the Justice League are. They are gods amongst men, but you know what happens with it not the gods, they're the men and they couldn't stop anything yeah, norman's, like you know, he's asking inspector basically like who's who's who's side of beyond here?
Speaker 2:inspectors like yeah there's no.
Speaker 1:We're observers, we're gonna watch and see how this unfolds. It's not even like that. It's more of like a not yet, like just just wait, like just something's gonna happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah can't tell you I can't tell you, but something bad's gonna happen.
Speaker 1:Um, and then, lo and behold, batman saddles up with Lex Luthor and you're like what, yeah, yep, um and like, look it like first read you're like what and then, like you re-read, you're like Batman would do something like this. He a hot old man, batman. On top of that, he a hundred percent would do something like this yeah, but maybe he's got a plan right.
Speaker 2:And then Luther basically says like all right, superman's got these people in prison and we're gonna use that and we're gonna basically wipe them out, wipe them out, goodbye yeah. And he's like I got, I got an ace up on my sleeve. You just you wait. Yeah, the Batman's like I'm gonna find out actually what that is. Um, so he, he brings in martial man hunter yep, who's kind of retired and lost his mind on top of that, because like this sucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I hate everything. This is the worst. Yeah, human suck, this is horrible. I'm not, I'm not the martial man hunter anymore, I'm just John Jones. Yep, human person, yeah, human kind of human person. And then Batman's like I need you to read this, read this. Who's this servant? I'm eyeballing everybody. What's what's his deal? Martial man hunter reads his mind.
Speaker 1:He's like we're gonna say this for the next issue um, yeah, and then we, we um, we learned that this is Billy batson um, and you know, batman's like this is this is your, your trump card?
Speaker 2:huh, you brainwash Shazam, basically. And when he did he did, he brainwashed him with him with a worm, courtesy of Dr Savanna and Lex with it was like, do you think when they came up with the term mad scientist, they were talking about Savanna? Because he did, he did some great work. Yeah, he did. And then, yeah, so basically they're gonna use Shazam to kill Superman.
Speaker 1:Yep because he can. Such a genius plan. Like I said, you think it's gonna be McGogg up until this point. You think that at the end of this is gonna be the new heroes versus the old heroes, big old Civil War, and you know they already set the landscape that it was gonna take place in Kansas, like you're, like you're thinking this is it, like this is gonna be the thing that happens and then Batman's like well, what if I stop that plan?
Speaker 2:double cross, yeah. Batman double cross, he knocks Billy down. He stomps on his throat, obviously, so he can't. Shazam is way out of there and Batman's like all right, that's it, the jig is up. Yep, task force. Task force young heroes go, execute delts and maneuvers execute delts on maneuvers, and I do all of Batman's young, young, he's recruited, basically. Yeah, young, the young heroes, basically of.
Speaker 1:Dick Grayson's back with them, like it's all the people that you would have known, like all their sidekits are with them. And then it's your Ted Kord, uh, diana, um, and Oliver, all with them.
Speaker 2:So, but Shazam gets away, billy gets away, ah, and basically, you know, and then you might be wondering like well, what's up? What's up, what's up with him? Basically, um, after everything happened, when the justice like retired Shazam you know the Shazam side of Billy batting kind of retreated away, yep, and just kind of left Billy, and then he's been under Lex Luthor's influence and Lex Luthor basically made him believe he was schizophrenic and, you know, experienced these episodes.
Speaker 2:Um, well, I'm acting like a child, yeah sometimes, but yeah he gets away, batman's like I'm, I'm old, I can't catch you. And then, wouldn't you know it, billy bats and stumbles into a room full of worms mind control worms. It's kind it might be like clunky as part of this comment, sure, sure that like he gets out of there and he's like, oh, no more, mind control worms. So Batman's like, oh boy, all right, well, it's really gonna kick off now. Yeah, um, so they're the Justice League's at Green Lanterns, emerald Palace. And then you know, spectre and and Norm are watching and all of a sudden, yank, yep, the flash pulls Norman out of the, the realm, the, also the pocket dimension, right. And the Spectre was like what?
Speaker 2:what so yeah, because the flash is everywhere everywhere all at once. He's there. So he pulls Norman in and Powergirl grabs them and he's like what, what is this? Who are you? And Norman's like.
Speaker 1:I'm just a guy.
Speaker 2:I'm and he starts, you know, spouting scripture and Superman. Superman's like I have no idea what you're talking about and he's like doomsday Superman, the apocalypse is coming, and superman's like I'm gonna go prevent the apocalypse.
Speaker 1:Like what are you? Yeah, we're good, yeah get lost, get lost.
Speaker 2:The best tag, the tagline of kingdom come, get lost, yeah, lost, um, my god, get lost. And then like in, like the like the most common way, like Superman is like I'm preventing the apocalypse. What do you think is gonna happen? The prison's gonna explode. And then the news the prison explodes. Should it's kicked off, it's hit the fan at the prison. Wonder woman's like all right, everyone, battle stations, everyone. Superman's like whoa, yeah.
Speaker 1:I actually really enjoy this point, um, and the most interesting character in this whole thing might be Wonder Woman. And I mean, if you know anything about Wonder Woman, I mean it's this conceit that you know over the princess status, over the royalty of Themyscara, over being, you know, one of the one of the Trinity of the Justice League. At the core of her being she's a warrior. Like that's what's built into her. Like you know, her source code of her DNA is that warrior status. So that's why she's so immediately like, all right, let's go deal with this. And it's just like seeing her in Superman, kind of that dichotomy between the two, like she never left, you know after, after what happened, but Superman left too, which is very interesting.
Speaker 2:Yep, she sends a few people down, she sends Green Lantern down, she sends a few people down to like deal with this please. And then you know they're like Superman's like all right, it's all gonna work, don't worry Everyone, everything's fine. And then Green Lantern comes on the coms and like everything is not fine. They killed Captain Comet and Superman is like they want.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to spoil the biggest sacrifice in this. It's the death of Captain Comet.
Speaker 2:And yeah, wonder Woman's like that's it, all right, we're all going. Now. Superman's like whoa, can we talk about this? Wonder Woman's like nope, we're done talking.
Speaker 1:I love it so much, it's so, it's so interesting that she, she can't break that. Even if she sees that these new heroes are so unhinged, Even if she sees all these things, I'm still. I'm going to fight at the end of the day, Like, are we just going to sit like I understand, like I grabbed you, I got you for a reason? You can, you know, mentally change them, but I'm the one that can physically like let's, let's get it done and she's like you know, your way is not working.
Speaker 1:It's not. It's you want to arrive. Nothing happened. Like you've done all these things that still look at the look at the world, the world's look at the breakage.
Speaker 2:You threw them in that prison with your little, super little hologram and we see like a few panels of like inside the prison and they're like the Superman, like preachy hologram is like change your ways, you know better than this. And the other guys like get lost, get lost. Yep.
Speaker 1:Kingdom come get lost. Oh, it's so interesting. I really love what they do with Wonder Woman in this.
Speaker 2:So yeah, all hands on deck, they fly down and like she kissed a Superman, but it's just like half hearted, but basically like like a pity kiss, almost. She's like we're done, we're done talking, we're actioning now. So they go down, leave Superman by himself at the Emerald Palace and he's like hmm.
Speaker 1:What do I do? What do I do, what to do?
Speaker 2:Norm and Spectre sitting there with their popcorn, like what's he going to do? This is the climax of the story. Spectre's like I know what he's going to do and Superman flies down. He flies through the floor of the Batcave rude, first of all.
Speaker 1:The Wayne Manor was already in ruins at that point.
Speaker 2:I do like what he shows up the first time. He's like what happened that? Man's like shut up. Yeah, I've been busy. It's all right, I've been busy making Gotham safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, look at me, I'm better than you and every way to shape it for it, I don't even, I don't even leave this place and Gotham safe.
Speaker 2:Look at my stuff.
Speaker 1:I got Bat robots. Got Bat robots, got Bat stoplights.
Speaker 2:Look at this, it's awesome, I got a cast, a body cast man that lets me walk yeah because I'm old, because I'm old and I'm human.
Speaker 1:I'm old and I'm human. Look at you, clark. I hate you.
Speaker 2:I fought Darkseid, presumably in this universe. Yeah, you're up, I'm old man, come on. So Superman's like look, maybe, maybe you were right, and Batman's like I know, I know. I was right. I'm old, I know I'm right, I have that old wisdom. Come on, that old person wisdom.
Speaker 1:These damn kids yeah that's what Kingdom Come is essentially.
Speaker 2:And then Batman's like I already told you to get lost. And Batman's like look, wouldn't it just be better if everyone killed each other? And Superman's like no. Batman's like wouldn't it.
Speaker 1:Wouldn't it Because all these issues we're having like should we not let the world play out the way it's supposed to play out Like? Should this not just happen for the sake of, because we can always rebuild out of this? We can kind of, and that was Lux Luthor's whole conceit was just like. I think what makes it interesting for Lux is like he still hates Superman. So that's why he had the Shazam trick up his sleeve. So Lux Luthor didn't care about humanity or the saving of humanity, he just wanted to see Superman die. But Batman's like. That's why it's very you know, it's very complex, because Batman's like if we just let this happen, then it is what it is right.
Speaker 1:Just fewer powered people, fewer powered people in the world, but then Superman's just like. Do you not think they would come after you in this situation? Do you think they're going to make a delineation between you and Oliver and Ted and me and Diana and Hal? They're not going to make any difference between us, like you're still one of us at this point.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then Superman's like look, we disagree on a lot, but the one thing that we do agree on is preventing the loss of life. And he's like that's what's at stake here. And Batman's like ugh, all right, we'll shut up my bat city. Yeah, where's my bat robot? Where's my bat sympathizer? He's like all right, fine, I'll help maybe, but before you go, you should know that that Shazam is coming and he's brainwashed by Lex Luthor. Superman's like oh no. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And don't they add a little bit before that where, like this little you know check-offs gun and sort of like, doesn't Superman get hit by something where it's magic and it cuts him a little bit and just like just?
Speaker 2:Oh, the sword, yeah, he picks up Wonder Woman's sword.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she's just like. This sword can split and like can split the neutron from an atom. Like you know, you were always susceptible to this sword could split cat and atom. No, yeah, well, yeah, but yeah, you were always a little susceptible to magic. And then you know, lo and behold, that's the thing that's going to take him out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Superman races off to the gulag. The gulag's been breached. Superman's super speeding and he gets flattened by a faster blur which we obviously know is just cat to marble. He lands there. It's a great panacea. Oh yeah, it's insane, yeah. And when he lands and he's like sitting there smiling really weird creepy looking smile on, brainwashed as am, and then it's on. Yeah, the fight's on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, bruce shows up Batman's back, he's got his whole squad that kind of drops in there. But you know Billy's just pumbling Superman like uncontrollably. Just you know the true might and I think it's such a like. That's why it's my favorite thing, because it's not just like. You know the mentality of like you know the young people are taking it like no Billy, it is like Billy's a kid, like Billy is truthfully like. You know he is the perfect embodiment of like why Superman is so important to anything. And the fact that he's going to be the one to kill Superman, like that will truthfully put the last nail in the coffin of this old age of superheroes and turn us into the new age.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, shazam and Superman are fighting Batman shows up, batman's crews basically there to like like just buffer between the two, like like in the Montgomery ball brawl, just for strain as many people as possible. Batman gets knocked to the ground by a fellow named Von Bach, who's got Batman dead to rights and then kaching sword goes through.
Speaker 1:Thanks for wondering.
Speaker 2:No, oh, who is it? It is Wonder Woman kills him. But it's not a thanks, wonder Woman, it's a what are you doing Like?
Speaker 1:that man is like furious, and that's why I said, like that's who she is at the core and it's embedded into her. She can't, she doesn't know anything else. Like as much diplomacy as you want that to wonder woman, she's a warrior at the end of the day and there's a war amongst us.
Speaker 2:So Wonder Woman's like what? Exactly do like don't like you and Superman, both like you don't get it. Yeah, there's no, there's no escaping what's coming and that's. And then the specters like yep, there you go. Yeah, this is it. Head on in there, kid. Remember that thing that I've been saying is going to happen.
Speaker 1:Here it comes yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, meanwhile, the government is the government.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like quick nukes, all the nukes. You got a nuke, drop it. What country you're from, that doesn't matter. Drop the nuke right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so three, three jets fly off with nuclear bombs. Wonder Woman takes Batman up into the sky. She's like listen here, batman. Yeah, if I drop you from here, it's not going to go well.
Speaker 1:If I dropped you from like another hundred feet down, it probably wouldn't get. If I dropped you from like 10 feet in the sky, it wouldn't go well.
Speaker 2:You're really old, the old man. But Batman's not paying attention because he watches the drones whiz by and he's like there's a yeah, I think there's.
Speaker 1:There could be nukes on there, probably Wonder Woman's, like all right.
Speaker 2:Trying to prove a point. So Wonder Woman and Batman go to disarm the nukes. They only disarmed two of them and the third one drops and you're like, yeah.
Speaker 1:And this is where it's the crux of the of the Superman Shazam fight. And Superman's like what does Superman do? I think he's getting lightning bolted. Shazam's lightning bolt spamming Superman, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then Superman stops him from saying Shazam, Well, you like like, because what Billy's doing or what Shazam is doing is he's saying Shazam and he's basically stepping back so that the lightning hits Superman because it's magic. So it's like it's really messing Superman up. And then he goes to do it again and Superman's like fool me once, Shame on me, Fool me twice. You can't get fooled again, Shazam. So he says Shazam again, but this time Superman pulls Shazam in and the lightning bolt hits Shazam. He turns back into Billy and then Superman grabs him by the face.
Speaker 1:He's like all right enough. He's like look, I have time to go, you know, stop, there's still time to stop this last nuke. He's like look, look, look, bro. It's not looking too great, ain't it?
Speaker 2:No, he's like, like what we're on a crossroads.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is do you save, do you kill me and complete Luther's plan and, you know, be turned into this dark age of anti-heroes? Or are we just going to save the most people for the most amount of good, Like you, tell me what you want to do and it's yeah, oh man.
Speaker 2:It's great, it's incredible I mean, this is probably the best, maybe the best bit of dialogue in this whole thing is Superman basically saying, like I can, I can stop this. I don't know if I should or if I'm even allowed to. Like, you know this, this is a decision that affects mankind and I'm not mankind. But you, you're both, billy, like you, you should, you should make this choice. Like, you're the one that makes the decision, like, and I know, like, like he, you know, takes the, takes the brainwashing, the brainwashing is eliminated. And like Billy's there and he, you know, you know, superman's. Like I'm not a God, I'm not a man, I'm like, I'm none of these things, I'm just an alien.
Speaker 2:But you're both, billy, like, more than more than anyone, yeah, you're the God and the man. Yeah, like, you can make this, you know what it's like to live both worlds and only you can make this decision. And you know, you can let me go or you can stop me, but I'm going to stop that bomb. And then Billy kind of makes, like the third, the third choice, because Superman flies up to stop the nuke and then Billy transforms, transforms back into a Shazam. He grabs Superman, throws him to the ground, grabs the bomb and then detonates it. You know, in the sky and you know we get to Norman and the Spectre, and the Spectre is like there, it is, there, it is Yep Norman's like. Well, this is like okay, but Still bad.
Speaker 1:This is still bad.
Speaker 2:Like because we cut, cut, cut to another page of Superman kneeling in a graveyard of skeleton.
Speaker 1:The vision came to fruition. Yeah, that keep. That kept dropping throughout the comic all up to this point.
Speaker 2:So Superman kneeling in a graveyard of skeletons, like the Nuke went off and still killed a bunch of people. A lot of people from Batman's crew specifically got vaporized. Superman loses it. Mm-hmm, he goes. He Goes to the UN. Yeah, his eyes light up. You know he vision style. He's going to drop. He traps everybody inside.
Speaker 1:I forget what that line he has in there too, or the line that the Spectre had in there too. He's just like I've never seen, like I've never seen the man of steel with rage like this, like I've never.
Speaker 2:He says, after 10 years he has finally unleashed a wrath that would cow Satan and stuff. Yeah, yep.
Speaker 1:Because like, yeah, that's my line of the thing, like that's incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's yeah, superman. You know evil Superman, trope Potentially manifesting it's getting there we're potentially manifesting evil Superman trope. He gets to the UN and he's about to bring it down. And then Batman or Norman shows up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there it is, norman shows up. That's his purpose.
Speaker 2:Yep, and he starts, he calls him Clark, you know, and that gets Superman to kind of like pay attention and Norman's, like you know, gives him the, gives him the speech, gives him the Danny Tanner, gives him the Danny the old Danny.
Speaker 1:He's like sit, sit down. Grab the chair, turns it around, sit down, dj. I got to tell you something. You're better than this, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know you're, you're a hero. But yada, yada, yada yada, batman shows up with a bunch of the other heroes and Superman's like how many of them survived in Batman? I love Batman's response to this when he was like enough, that like the problem is still where it was, but I think we're in a better spot. Basically is what Batman says to him is like you know, maybe nothing changed, but maybe something changed. Yeah, who's to say Superman's like all right.
Speaker 1:Title card Kingdom come.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, superman, you know Norman's like. Yeah, all right, save. Save the world and the specters, like pizza Mission accomplished.
Speaker 1:Jim Corrigan out, I did it. Yeah, I'm the best. Oh, the specter.
Speaker 2:We go to Kansas again. Superman's back on the farm. Diane is there and she's like you know, you were right. Yeah, Basically, like you know, we, we almost, we almost destroyed the world, but we kind of we all got our humanity back Right. Isn't that what this is all about? Metaphor yeah, she gives him the glasses, the Clark Kent glasses because he's he's taken back his humanity, this humanity.
Speaker 2:Yep, and that's where we we leave it. Superman, water Woman kind of go off into the sunset and then we go to a year later they're back at the superhero diner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the superhero 60s inspired diner. Superman's like. I hate this. Yeah, batman's like stake me now Somebody give me a steak. I also hate this, but give me some steak. Yeah, ponto, batman's dog in his steak. Bruce, we got to tell you something. You're pregnant. I know I'm Batman. I'm Batman, I know everything. See my city, it's patrolled.
Speaker 2:I know everything Wonder Woman's like, by the way, I want you to be the godfather. And Superman's like what?
Speaker 1:Hold on. Horrible decision, by the way, because he's like 80. Yeah, bad decision. Bad decision Because, like best case scenario, the kid turns out to be like a god level Robin. Oh no, the Superman evil trope is just back. Essentially, jim Corrigan and Norman are at the diner.
Speaker 2:They get a specter sandwich or whatever it's called, and Jim Corrigan, like I hate this. Yeah, batman kind of looks at them like you're the specter from DC Gominus. How do you know that, bro, is he the only one?
Speaker 1:Is he the only one? Get lost, yeah, how do you know that? Get lost, batman. And then they literally walk off into the sunset and that's it. That's it Kingdom come. It's great. What an absolutely monumental piece.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is the crux from the 90s. This is like one of the big bridging points from the 90s since the 2000s. You can pick this up right now. It will be relevant right now.
Speaker 1:I forget what that force was, that quote, unquote superhero force that was trying to. This is where Superman comes back, where they're trying to stop the immigrants from coming into the country. And he's just like you immigrants, there's not enough room in Kansas, isn't here anymore. And Superman's like I'm also an immigrant, so I'm going to stop this, I think. But all these things are super relevant for today.
Speaker 1:This is just it's an incredible read. It's like it's one of those like if I were to have like a top 10 list and maybe this is something we do one day of like comics that are like essential, like this is in the essential list, like if I were to name a couple from the essential list of comics, it's like it's this it's Watchman is definitely in the essential category. The Minutemen, the Minutemen, yeah, the Minutemen, and there's something, something whatever. Yeah, I think he's essentially Captain America, if I'm not mistaken. That's who he. That's truthfully who he is. But but yeah, like this comic itself is, it is one of the most important that's ever been made. I mean, there's a reason why Alex Ross isn't just drawing every single like it's super tough for you to get, but you get something like that. But it's just. You know, mark Wade is one of the greatest writers of all time and he's proven that for what? Three decades now of how incredible he is. So, yeah, this is just an absolute must read.
Speaker 1:Make sure you seek this out, like you said earlier, if, even if you're, even if you just know who Wonder Woman, superman and Batman are, then you're going to know the story. But all the themes in it are super realized, they're super thought provoking, which is always great. And just, dead man's in this, dead man's in this, mr Miracles in this. Briefly, briefly, the killed Crimson Comet or not, right, captain? Captain Comet and Captain Adam and Captain, all the captain's dying RIP. I can't believe they split the Adam. Parasite was trying to surrender, that's all I'm saying. Parasite was dead to rights.
Speaker 2:I love how. I love how dead man. I'm looking at the bit right now with dead man and he's like the specter is kind of weird, isn't he? And Norman's like yeah, he's a little weird and he's like he used to be a cop, I think. And the specter's like get over here. Yeah, stop talking to dead man, he's weirdo.
Speaker 1:Dead man don't deserve this. You want to give us some awards, or world famous awards? Sure, all right, let's do it. Let's do what's the who's the most underrated character in this whole thing.
Speaker 2:Most underrated character. Maybe, is it maybe McGog.
Speaker 1:I mean from a religious connotation point, absolutely not, and I would never say that over the airways, but at the. For the understanding of the story. I can, I can see where you're coming from. I feel like for me it's going to be Wonder Woman, because she is like it's just, it's so awesome of an idea for her to not portray Like that's why, like, even if you know what these characters are about, they get hyper realized in the story.
Speaker 1:Like everything that Batman stares for is hyper realized. Everything Superman stands for is hyper realized. Everything Lex Luthor stands for is hyper realized. But Wonder Woman is the best example of that, because some hyper realization isn't a heightening order. It could be. It's just like what the truth would be. And the truth for Wonder Woman is she is like you know, obviously, but who does she change for at the end? She changes for Superman in the last bit, but you know, up until that point where they kind of have their little, you know, not physical confrontation, but like she's, like you guys don't understand, like we have to put them down. If it comes to the case, we have to put them down. We have to put them down. That's just the way it's going to go. So I think she's. She's such a great character to this story.
Speaker 2:I also think in a weird way, even though he's like super integral, I think Shazam is a little underrated in this too, just because you only really get to see the true Shazam shine right at the end. Yeah, up until then he's kind of just this brainwashed smiling sociopath. But you know, you really get to see him shine in those last couple pages, you know, when he makes the sacrifice, in a way like I think Shazam is also super underrated in this.
Speaker 1:I like that Best relationship. It's Batman and.
Speaker 2:Superman, batman and his commitments to keeping crime out of Gotham.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Batman and his bat drones, I guess, are the best relationships.
Speaker 2:His bat robots. But no, I yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. I think Batman and Superman, like because they, they have those, you know it's not, you know it's not a mistake that they have they kind of place the two meetings between them right at the beginning, right at the end, like they have those two kind of like. Both are kind of contentious meetings but like the second one is when they like really rekindle there, like what made them, you know, the world's finest, basically Like Superman's like. We have our disagreements, but we have this one thing, this is one thing, that they did the same thing in Injustice.
Speaker 1:2. It's the same exact thing where they were, just like you know why'd you leave. He said, why'd you leave this here? It's just like you know those were good, those were good memories. Like it's the same thing. They have an understanding for each other that you know even the best of friends might not have, because they have truth in between the two of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we disagree on a lot, and we've even disagreed on how to handle this situation, but there's this one thing that we don't compromise and it's, you know, preventing the loss of life, and I know you can help me with this. It's a great moment.
Speaker 1:Most heroic moment.
Speaker 2:I mean she's him detonating the nuke.
Speaker 1:I mean, I can argue it's Superman and, like you know, I'm gonna spoil my favorite shop. It's Superman holding. I forget who he's holding, but when he you know he comes back, that could be the most heroic moment in and of itself, just because it is the very idea of what this comic is Like. Just Superman's presence alone had people, like you know, had some of the other, you know the younger heroes, cowering a little bit like, oh shoot, like that's actually Superman.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I feel like that's like you know what is. You know heroics if not your presence itself. That's a great point, best bit you know what the best bit is? The best bit is when Ted Corden, dinah and Oliver like walk out of the shadows. If, like Superman, didn't know they were already there because he's Superman, like you just thought you guys walked out of the shadow. Like you're not Batman, you knew he was there.
Speaker 2:I just think that I think the best bit is just the specter being like wait for it. Yeah, wait for it, Hold on.
Speaker 1:Hold on.
Speaker 2:Hold it, Hold it Thor.
Speaker 1:Hang on.
Speaker 2:The big thing's gonna happen. Yeah, Hang on. No one's like why are we watching this whole thing? He's like wait for it, why me?
Speaker 1:Why me Get lost, also Get lost Favorite cameo. I mean we could do this on three right One, two, three, orion, orion. Yeah, because Orion's just like my dad was really evil, wasn't he Like? That's what I just get from him, that he's just like a couple.
Speaker 2:It's like a page or two of Superman on apocalypse and Orion's like all right, things are good. Things are good here. I like this job. Yeah, superman's like all right.
Speaker 1:What even goes on on apocalypse in the future? They're just it's just fighting.
Speaker 2:People are just fighting all over the place, yeah, and Orion just watches, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it's like not on a cosmic, so you could just chill there, yeah.
Speaker 2:And he doesn't have like any, he doesn't have dark sides of ambitions, yeah, so like he just chills on apocalypse and just lets things happen, yeah. And Superman's like I could, I could, you know, bring him here, you good, you good here. And Orion's like yeah, yeah, I'm good here.
Speaker 1:It used to be fun. I bet we were fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:All those, all those, for all those fourth world, all those, all those what do they call themselves? All those Justice League times um fourth world adventures.
Speaker 2:Also shout out Aquaman for standing up for himself. Finally, finally, good job.
Speaker 1:That's why I want to talk about justice. So bad because, like Aquaman, gets such a short end to the stick. And justice like his. His son gets killed in justice Like it's nuts.
Speaker 2:Also, uh, the count, the council of gobbly beings that can mean oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, but the wizard, the Shazam wizard, the guardians of Ola are there. I hate the guardians of Ola.
Speaker 1:Can I talk? Can I get into it? Sure, over any form of, they're the worst. They stare, horrible, they suck. They won't do anything themselves. It's up for the one. They just they're horrible.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So like they have like a meeting and they're like man wizard, you really you really goofed by giving your powers to Billy. That's it. And the wizard's like too late now, yeah.
Speaker 1:I wish there was a power being powerful, powerful enough to deal with this, yeah, so who's there?
Speaker 2:The fam stranger's there, the the, the guy's there. Um, yeah, the good, the wizard, the wizard's there, the guardian of all, of the Gantt that is there, the high father is there and Zeus is there, nice.
Speaker 1:And they're like Zeus your daughter is going crazy down there. Imagine if we could do something. Yeah, wouldn't that be crazy? You guys want in and out, or you guys want to food, or that's good.
Speaker 2:I just I think I'm. I'm retroactively saying my favorite cameo is dead man, just cause he's like man. Yeah, this is look how wacky I am, yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause he just doesn't need to be there. No, but it just makes it so much better. He's like look, look, look, how crazy this is Isn't this crazy I do like it.
Speaker 2:Look at the specter, Isn't he crazy. And the specter's like let's go, we gotta go. Dead man's like well, see you later.
Speaker 1:It's been fun, I've been dead man. He's like a stand up comedian. He's like. He's like Deadpool in this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's like isn't this crazy? We're doing a, we're doing a Kingdom come right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's like what? How do you know the name of the comic? How did you get? How do you know this is a comic itself? How did you? What happened? Who wrote this in? Mark wait, prime Michael Ben has showed up to take out with his friend. He's like look, this would be hilarious if we just threw this in there. Right, what is the best? I mean the best one view. One is Shazam for Superman. That's easy. Best set, best setting.
Speaker 2:Best set the, the, the gulag, the digitized. Actually, I take it back.
Speaker 1:The Emerald, the Emerald Palace. Oh yeah, the Emerald Palace is cool, it's good stuff. Best heat check performance Norman, when he actually did something when he actually did something. But then Jim Cor or not Jim Corrigan, norman McKay immediately was just like you're an idiot, like you're you're stupid. Like you waited this whole time. Couldn't you have not done something this whole time? If you have all this infinite power, he's like I gotta go. Funniest moment, bring me my steak. I'm Batman.
Speaker 2:That was pretty good. He was so incestuous he was, he was, he was steak. I'm old, he was like coffee and keep it coming. Yeah, yeah, batman at the diner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's actually probably the best the best bit, best exposition dump, it's probably the super. Like the explaining of what. What like what's up with the Justice League now?
Speaker 2:The Ocean Justice League. It's like they. They're written in such a way that they're like beyond, beyond.
Speaker 1:Best source material called back the fact that Lex Luthor's just always on. Like no matter what iteration of Lex Luthor you find, he's always on. He's always just plotting to kill Superman. Yeah, I can't stand that Superman. No matter if the human race is about to be annihilated, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:His plots, within his plots have like I mean just honestly, all the lineage stuff is super cool.
Speaker 1:There was a few of the new age heroes that were subsidiaries of the old age heroes, like I said, whether it be their kids or whether it be you know, just like, take the mantle from somebody else and remix it a little bit. Best, npc, it's not Deadman, it can't be Deadman.
Speaker 2:The UN, the UN guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, that's good stuff. Does Obligatory. Drop the nukes, the UN guy.
Speaker 1:I like that a lot. I do love that a lot. Favorite action sequence.
Speaker 2:The big fight, the big fight, there it is.
Speaker 1:The big superhero fight. The big fight, favorite line.
Speaker 2:The bit that Superman says to Shazam is just super important. You want to talk about lines of dialogue or whatever the case may be that define a character. That whole bit defines not just Superman, but it defines Shazam also. So I mean that just sticks out to me. When you read it you're like holy moly, like that's an exposition dump and a line that you wouldn't usually see outside of a graphic novel. Really that felt very Watchman-esque, just reading that whole scene unfold and the close-up shots of close-up panels of Shazam's eyes as Superman's talking and you can tell it's resonating. And then it just propels Billy to do what he does at the end. And yeah, that whole diatribe by Superman to Shazam is just amazing.
Speaker 1:I'm going to keep this very simple. You know what the best line of dialogue in here is? It's just judgment. Just when the nuke goes off and the specter just says judgment and that's it. It is the most definitive and defining line of hold, this whole thing, in my opinion, like that's what you've been waiting for this whole time. It still happened. But can we rebuild out of this? Can we? Yes, we had a kid. We bought a zoo, all right. Favorite panel. New category alert that took over the favorite shot favorite panel.
Speaker 2:The emergence of the Justice League, when they're all like flying.
Speaker 1:I'm going to. That's so tough. I don't know why I really like the apocalypse stuff. I just like that kind of two-pager, just because they're out in space and Orion's like I'm good man, everything's good out here. It's like when you haven't seen your acquaintance for a while. It's not your friend, but it's somebody you know. It's been a couple of years. That's exactly what that exchange between Superman and Orion was Everything's good man. You're like mom's good. Mom's good. Dad died actually. Your dad kind of sucked, though.
Speaker 2:Also, just from a cool standpoint, the close-up of Superman when he's in the amongst the sea of bodies and eyes.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, that's and the smokes around him.
Speaker 2:That's just a really well-drawn piece. I mean the whole thing Incredible.
Speaker 1:Thank you, alex, You've done your thing, and then I mean your favorite character.
Speaker 2:Superman. We talked about it last week when we talked about favorite Superman stories or stories that don't betray the character. That's why I'm glad we talked about this. Coming off of what we talked about last week was because the evil Superman trope. That's why we both of us kind of have a slight issue with injustice where Superman wouldn't go that far due to one bad day.
Speaker 1:Because the conceit of injustice is this universe is somewhat close to the normal continuity Earth, so why would Superman go that far off the rails? This is what would happen. Of anything he would exile himself. That's what he would do. It makes so much more sense, it's so much more plausible.
Speaker 2:And then, in a way, he does, incidentally, create kind of a quasi-fascist state, like he does in injustice. It's just not like. Instead of an injustice he's obviously just trying to eradicate crime and in this he's just trying to get everyone to see things his way, which both are equally fascist. But one is passively fascist, where he's just trying to impose his own morality on everybody, which also is wrong. You also shouldn't do that, even if you are on the more righteous side of it. You still should let people make their own choices, which is exactly why the last moment between him and Shazam is so important, because he's letting Shazam make the choice, whereas this entire comic he wasn't letting anyone make a choice. He was like you're going to abide by my rules or you're going to rot.
Speaker 1:It's either truth, justice or the American way, or you rot in the gulag.
Speaker 2:And that's why the end is so important, because he gives Billy the choice he's like I realize basically now I shouldn't have been making all these choices. I don't have a right to make these choices. Even if it kills us all, I still don't have the right to make that decision. But you do, because you understand it better than everybody else. So that's why I love what they do in Superrim and this. That's.
Speaker 1:Kingdom Come Good stuff, Good stuff DC.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's amazing. Hopefully it's something that we see in the future In other media. I think it would be really interesting to try and tackle that. We've seen inspo from it in different walks of life, different things and different shows and stuff, so I would like to see it adapted proper into something, particularly maybe probably the animated side, just because the animated DC stuff is just tremendous. So hopefully that happens. I know that was on the table at one point and then it kind of got shelved recently Due to all the reshuffling going on. But yeah, it's a timeless story. It's almost 30 years on but much of the themes and the plot and everything are still incredibly relevant, especially as it relays, like I said with Superman, that morality piece even if you think what you're doing is right, it still doesn't give you the right to impose that on everybody, and I think that's an important part of this story in so far as saying, hey, maybe you do have the moral high ground, but you still have to let people make their own decisions.
Speaker 1:And that's kind of what the specters' role is in all this.
Speaker 2:Norman is constantly bagging on him like can't you do something?
Speaker 1:That's why the religious connotations in here are super evident. Superman, essentially, is God in this situation where Judgment Day is coming and whoever is here will be saved. Whoever is ready to be saved will be saved. So, like I said, just an incredible piece, thought-provoking piece, and this is DC at its absolute best, in stories like this, where they're not worried about continuity. Like anytime, dc is not worried about continuity, and the next issue of something to have to play into something usually is when it operates off its best. Even if it's not an Elseworlds thing, they operate just absolutely incredibly. And yeah, this is two comics in it. I'm having fun talking some comics finally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the Spectre 2 is kind of obviously how people the Spectre also acts as this analog for how people view God, in the sense that, like you have, can't you do something? Like can't you, which people ask of God all the time why does God allow bad things to happen? The Spectre basically lays it out Like they have to make their own decisions and that's ultimately the conclusion that Superman also comes to is being kind of like the God that can act as that's the decision he comes to, is like we have to let people choose ultimately. And yeah, it's just a really great, really great story. Obviously, the artwork you can get lost in the artwork.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just it's stunning to look at. I mean, like I said, another. There is the. There was the world's finest line, I think they called it where it was. Like Superman, peace on earth, batman, war on crime, like all these stories that Alex Ross draws are all incredible. Like I said at some point, hopefully in the near future, I really want to talk about justice, because justice is very, it's very simple. It's very much just the Justice League versus the Injustice League, but just the way they go about it is very complex and very, very cool. But yeah, like I always say, comics are really stupid, really done, but sometimes you find the gems and you find just these absolutely incredible stories realized by these absolutely incredible creators.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's really all there is to it. Short of that, that was Kingdom Come. Any any final thoughts?
Speaker 1:No, I mean next week. We're definitely in a I don't know. I don't know Next week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're kind of like a week by week thing, to be honest with you, because you know, as soon as the minute this, this, this, the strike and everything gets resolved, I mean we're going to have a backlog of things that we've been, you know, obviously, talking about, but we'll we'll wait to officially talk about it on the podcast until after everything's resolved. But I mean we have a backlog of things to talk about, so we don't even don't even know how that's even going to form in itself yet.
Speaker 1:So means we're doing Daredevil born again next week.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, it's kind of a week by week. We kind of just like, hey, you want to talk about this, and then that's what we do. So next week, not sure we'll figure it out. So then you can follow us on Facebook. You can follow us. Follow us on Facebook project infinite podcast. You can follow us on Twitter at project NF underscore pod. You can follow us on Instagram at the project infinite pod. And yeah, man, that was Kingdom Come Great story, obviously again. Just just thought provoking will definitely resonate with you if you sit down and read it. You can get the whole four issues in one book on Amazon.
Speaker 1:Some of our books are cooler than others. Books we should even get that. I got it on Amazon. I got mine from Amazon, but mine's. I guess I couldn't spring that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got the little little extra bit. It's got some extra bits.
Speaker 1:I have the, I have the backlog stuff, but I don't have that much backlog stuff. Yeah, a lot of backlog stuff and that's kind of. You have the deluxe edition.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got the DLC, the Kingdom Come DLC.
Speaker 1:I don't have that at all.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so, yeah, that's. The other thing too is like the comics is. You know, you always try, you always want to try and be careful with what you're, what you're getting, because sometimes you'll be like, oh, I want this thing, and then it's only like one issue of the thing and you're like, oh, so make sure you're you're really doing your research when you're trying to get a hold of these things, because comics can be tricky in that way. Like I really do wish there was a more streamlined kind of accessibility piece to comics. I think that would be, that would be great. Um, we're kind of, we're kind of getting there, but you know, with comicsology and Amazon.
Speaker 2:you know they've attempted to do it, but it's still not really where I would want it to be as far as like people being able to get like access to full books and full stories. But this one is easily, easily gettable If you so choose.
Speaker 1:Give me a number, one through 37. 20. 20. 20. Captain Adam, human nuclear reactor and symbol of the atomic age. No, that is crazy that you picked Captain Adam and the last page of literally the entire comic. They have like a, they have the spread, like the famous Alex Rock spread of all the characters, and it's one through 37. Give me another one 17. 17. Our man number three, current inheritor of the mantle, with none of the time limits of ooh implied by the name. That's kind of cool. Ah, so he's, he's, he's hours man. Yeah, he's hours man. He gets multiple hours. Nice, very, very, very cool. Good job, hours man. That's a much better name instead of our man three is hours man.
Speaker 2:Um, did all the plugs, did all the things. Next week is a thing. So, yeah, I think that's pretty much going to do it for us.
Speaker 1:Maybe we let the people vote on what we do. Maybe we give them the choice, oh just like, just like Superman gave Billy the choice. Maybe we let the people decide what we do and they can't be trusted, Uh huh, Can they not? I don't know. We'll give. We might give you guys four options and you pick.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, man, that's a maybe. We'll do that, yeah, uh, but until then, for me, from the careful man, from the Scott free of the podcast.
Speaker 1:I'll take it two weeks in a row. No, I didn't get it last week, did I? No, I forget who I got last week.
Speaker 2:Uh, can't remember. I'm going to have to listen to like all a hundred some odd episodes and write down a list, because I'm doomed to repeat one at some point. Yeah, um, so yeah, until then, we will see you next week. Goodbye, peace on earth.