The Project Infinite Podcast
A Podcast Spanning The Ever Expanding Infinite Multiverse of Fandom. From movies, to TV, to comics, to the world of gaming, we have you covered at every corner with thoughts, opinions, commentary and a little bit of comedy too.
The Project Infinite Podcast
125 - From Iron Man to Arrow: Defining "Saving" Moments in Movies, TV & Comics
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What if Deadpool 3 could be the game-changer the MCU desperately needs? While the phrasing may be dire, we decided to take that idea and apply it to movies, TV, comics and genres this week as we take a swing at what projects “saved” either their genre, their idea, or their show or movie. We also talk the latest news of this past week! We explore the significant impact of the John Wick series on the evolution of Western action movies, and how it has influenced the genre with its revolutionary approach to fight sequences. Comparisons to other contemporary action films and the rise of studios like A24, known for high-quality, independent storytelling, round out our discussion. From the transformative moments of "Iron Man" to the revitalization of the Arrowverse with Arrow Season 5, this episode covers the pivotal events that have shaped and redefined franchises across the entertainment spectrum. Timecodes are provided if you want to skip around to your topic of choice! Thank you to everyone who continues to support and don’t forget to subscribe to download new episodes as they become available and don’t be afraid to share a rating!
0:00 Intro/Deadpool 3 Reveals & Speculation
05:50 Fantastic 4 Update
09:45 Superman Set Photos
13:00 More Blade Trouble
15:27 Dune: Messiah to be Denis Villeneuve’s Next Film
21:16 Andor Update!
25:40 Topic: Deadpool & Wolverine to “save” the MCU. Does it Need Saving? We Look at Biggest “Saves” in Movies, Comics & TV
01:32:37 Signing off!
Topic for Next Week: ???
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Speaker 2:Podcast Go tell your friends it's the Infinite Podcast.
Speaker 1:My God, it never ends. It's the.
Speaker 2:Infinite Podcast with Robin Kork the Cube. Yeah, hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Project Infinite Podcast, the podcast covering the infinite and ever-expanding multiverse of fandom For movies, comics, tv shows, video games. We got you covered. I'm Rob. I'm here, as always, with Court and Court, we are on the road to Deadpool 3. I almost said 2, but it's Deadpool 3. And we got like a little under a month.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're almost there. I mean this movie. It's weird. This movie feels like I've been thinking about this coming out for, I mean, years upon years. I mean, when did we start to know about this movie? I think it was 2021. We knew that we were going to get a Deadpool as soon as the rights went back to Marvel from all the Fox. We knew, obviously. We knew Deadpool 3 was going to be a thing, and I mean the big red herring, for this is when Wolverine was confirmed to not just be a cameo or a little character. No, this is a true and true buddy cop adventure through the multiverse, I'm assuming is what this is going to be about.
Speaker 2:It feels that way and I mean the biggest thing, I guess, and kind of leading into our topic today because we're not doing a review, we're not doing anything like that, we're doing a tried and true.
Speaker 2:Tried and true just a fun thing, and I guess a lot of people are saying it feels like a bit of an exaggeration, but we kind of latched onto this idea and are going to run with it is that this idea that Deadpool and Wolverine might save the MCU feels a little drastic to me, but that's kind of what people are kind of pinning on it and that's why our topic today.
Speaker 2:We are just going to kind of volley back and forth just movies, tv shows, whatever the case is, that kind of quote, unquote saved the franchise that they represented or helped launch, or whatever the case is. It usually comes down to a singular project that can be traced that, you know, kind of resurrect something or saves it or whatever the case is. So that's what we're going to talk about, um, and then, yeah, we'll just, we'll just throw a couple of those back and forth. And you know, deadpool is definitely in the zeitgeist and, that being said, with Deadpool we do have a little bit of Deadpool news. A new clip has been released for Deadpool 3 and, to nobody's surprise, it is confirmed now that Sabretooth is in this movie the X-Men 1 version of Sabretooth, not the Liev Schreiber version, much to our dismay.
Speaker 1:I mean. I mean, it makes sense. This actually makes the it's the perfect, because if you were to flip the coin and pick which one you want, or throw out the dartboard, you're going to pick the. Obviously, you're not going to pick Lief Schreiber. You've got to do the funniest version and this is the funniest version to pick.
Speaker 2:The Mad Max version.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really is the Mad Max version.
Speaker 2:He's got goggles on the beard, is all grown out. Looks like we're going to get a big Wolverine-Sabertooth fight in this movie, which is neat. Which is cool.
Speaker 1:The fight choreography looks good. Yeah, from the trailers it looks pretty decent yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean we'll see what other. I mean this is like the thing of like, you know, if they're, if they're showing that, what are they kind of withholding from us? I think is also a neat point to kind of make. Um, you know, I think obviously you got a wolverine movie. I always have to pay homage to, to the saber-tooth stuff also, so I think that makes total sense. Definitely goes along with the idea that a bunch of Fox characters are going to pop up in this. Obviously it's not just going to be Sabretooth, it's going to be Sabretooth and friends. I would expect.
Speaker 1:We know Toad. We know Pyro's in this movie as well too. I think there was one more that I can't remember, who's also in there as well too.
Speaker 2:I'm curious, though, if they're just going to stick with the singer X-Men stuff. I think that makes a lot more sense, because they're going to do the classic X-Men.
Speaker 1:I mean, Hugh Jackman obviously has been Wolverine through and through. He's the only person that hasn't been replaced through this entire thing.
Speaker 2:So I wouldn't be surprised if they just stick with singers and kill all of them. I think would be the would make the most sense. Yeah, that I agree and I think that, like to your point, kind of like the first class stuff feels a little bit like too bull. I guess. It's like like you wouldn't want to like just kill off those characters for like a gag. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:But like the x-men, like the singer x-men, especially the the Brotherhood of Mutants characters are all kind of goofy. Like you know, they're very of their time. Like I think the heroic, like the heroes in the Singer X-Men movies actually kind of hold up better over time like the portrayals of those characters Besides, I mean obviously besides Magneto. But I feel like the villains in the Singer trilogy kind of come across a little bit more comic book-y. So they fit kind of better in this style of movie than the first class set of villains. I think the first class set of villains it's really just, I mean it's Magneto for most of it, then like Apocalypse, like you're not going to do that, you know what I mean. Like it's very like you could just do a bunch of Brotherhood of Mutants characters.
Speaker 1:But also I don't know who they're going to use. That's what I keep thinking about. Like I don't know how far they're going to take this you do make a good point about. It might be a little too niche to touch any of the newer X-Men, because how they I mean for lack of a better term crashed and burned out. But you know the original OG singer X-Men. So I wonder if they're going to double down. Just use all of them, like I said, Femke Jensen, halle Berry, james Marsden, just kind of bring all of them in. So that's what I'm looking forward to. I wonder if they're actually going to do it. You know, and obviously we always say this about any of these types of projects, you know, just make sure your number one priority is story. That needs to be the number one. Story and character, it needs to be the number one priority.
Speaker 2:Yep, yeah, 100%. So we'll see, we'll see. We'll just stick with a couple of Marvel things. Fantastic Four Kevin Feige has confirmed, obviously, you know the marketing kind of gave this away, but this movie will be taking place in the 60s, it will be set in an alternate timeline which, again, we kind of figured, which makes total sense. And you know, I think I think this movie is on on a really great track.
Speaker 2:Um, joseph Quinn just had a really great performance in the uh, quiet place prequel. Um, I haven't gotten a chance to see it yet, but by all accounts he and Lupita Peele and Nwango are really, really good and I think he kind of needed that, to be honest, because I feel like for some reason people were just not on board with him. I don't know why. I feel, like everyone, he was like the star of the summer a few years ago when Stranger Things came out and then all of a sudden people were just like not on board. So I think I'm glad that he apparently put up a really nice performance in this Quiet Place prequel and looking forward to Fantastic Four, I think everything you know on the flip side of the Blade stuff that I'm about to get into, I think everything about this movie seems to be really promising Sure.
Speaker 1:I think I know Joseph Coyne just said and you know, obviously the actors are supposed to do this, but it was just something about the way he said it.
Speaker 2:He said this script is very Ralph Einison also said that this script is really good. Oh right, that was the one.
Speaker 1:You know when Ralph Einison says that you might be onto something, but both him and Joseph Quinn said this script is something. This is actually something that's pretty interesting and pretty cool. I think they're going to get quasi-experimental with the movie. I think it would be cool. You know, don't be afraid to dip into the. You know the beautiful weirdness of what the fantastic four are. Be the multiverse hoppers. Be the. You know the cosmic explorers. Do all things. Do. Don't do the ultimate nullifier. That's too much of a, that's. That might be the biggest check or that might be the biggest ex machina. And you know, and movie in comic history is the. Besides, superman himself is just the ultimate nullifier is crazy yeah, it's an insane.
Speaker 2:It's an insane, insane weapon um. It's a galactus killing weapon. You know what the galactus killing kind do the ultimate nullifier.
Speaker 1:They gotta recreate the scene from infinity war. He said what kind of weapon johnny's gotta be like, what kind of weapon is this? Read the galactus killing kind um.
Speaker 2:But no, I think you know, like I said, as opposed to the Johnny's got to be like what kind of weapon is this? Reed, the Galactus-killing kind? But no, I think, like I said, as opposed to the Blade stuff, I think everything around this movie is really encouraging. Obviously, from the casting to the setting, it just screams that, like you kind of said, it does have an experimental feel to it. We're just going to try some stuff with this movie and I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 2:I think I think historically, with the marvel movies, like you know, dating back I'm gonna step on what I'm going to talk about in a little bit but stepping back to even like iron man, like there was an experimental nature to iron man and then obviously guardians of the galaxy had that as well. Like, just try some stuff and, you know, don't be afraid to step outside the box a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I I agree with with the. You know, pulling characters from. You know where they came from as well too. I think Tobey Maguire's Spider-Man does this well of.
Speaker 1:I know it's still the early 2000s to the mid 2000s where he's operating, but he there's this homage-ish feel to the 60s and, you know, placing them in the actual 60s I think is a is a great idea. Everybody relax. They're going to end up being MCU at some point. They're going to end up there in the present time. Whatever earth they're on is probably back in the 60s and they're going to jump to the present day at some point. Everybody calm down. But I actually want to supersede and jump to the Superman stuff, because talking about a transition from talking about characters in the 60s and not just them being in the 60s, but the feel there's just this nostalgic feel almost to them being in their current time, and I think this Superman movie every time I see something about this movie, I just I get more comfortable and more comfortable and more hopeful about what we're about to get out of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, we got some set photos of some characters. Obviously, superman is the first one. The suit, first and foremost, looks Obviously I think we actually said this that it was going to look different than that promo image, and it does. It looks much more colorful, it looks much more blue, it has the yellow shields on the back on the cape, he's got the underpants on the back on the cape, he's got the underpants on the outside and it just looks really, really good. Who else did we see in this? Mr Terrific is the other big one.
Speaker 1:Oh, it looks outstanding, it looks incredible, it looks very accurate. But I forgot who said it. It might have been you that saw it and told me it's almost like the Scooby Doo approach, where it's not him adapting the characters. It's as if he was taking the characters out of the comic and putting it into the, into a movie. That's kind of the feel I'm getting out of this. I'm down to, like you know, perry White, to Lois Lane, to Jimmy Olsen, like all of them.
Speaker 2:They all look like if I were to pick up a Superman comic and then look at these set photos. Yeah, they, they understand what they're doing. 100 I 100 agree with that. Um, and I just, you know, even down to. We also saw a look at david corn sweat as clark kent and he looks vastly different as clark kent, as he does, um, as superman, which I think isn't super important, because I think I think the the kind of the gag behind, like the clark kent moniker, is his mannerisms as clark kent is kind of what hides it, right. Um, I mean, we've seen, you know, christopher reeve obviously did that spectacularly, I think, of the modern superman, tyler hecklund probably does it the best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's I love how he also there's like a like the whipped cream on top for tyler hecklund is putting the dad spin on it a little bit. I think that helps him out a little bit. I'm just this normal dad from the Midwest, and also I'm the most important man on the planet too.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think James Gunn understands that idea too. So I'm curious at how David Cornsweth plays the dichotomy. I think it'll be really, really good. We saw some Cat Grant, we saw some Brooke Tessmacher, um and like, and we saw some Lois Lane and, like you said, I think you know all these characters just look like the, to your point, we're kind of ripped out of the comic book, like it. Just they don't look kind of, you know, I don't want to say like Snyder-fied, but they don't. You know, everything is very vibrant, all the colors are very purposeful and I'm just you know the set photos are coming. So that means you know other things aren't going to be far behind, you know, within the next few months.
Speaker 1:So and I was kicking around through you know different James Gunn projects as well. I was kicking around the Guardians movies. I was kicking around and I just put on guardians three and then it's just. And then I put on peacemaker, the suicide squad, and the more you watch and you get to something like this you know any naysayer that's out here I just I can't, I can't get behind any non hopeful nature or feel like I keep saying it, and it's something that I said when the Batman was coming out. There's just something about this movie that I can't. I can't explain what it is, but I just have an overwhelmingly good feel about it. It just it feels right. You know what I mean. It feels correct, like it feels, like this is what you know, what Superman could and should be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I 100% agree with that. Um, and then just I mean to say about marvel with blade was that del orlando is is officially out? Um, you know, that was one of the castings that when we heard it we're like, oh nice, like this is really great. And then you know, you know, I mean I can't say I blame him.
Speaker 1:um, this movie's been in development hell now for four years yeah, and especially an older actor with the, you know, with the reputar that he has. You know, somebody like him could have been like I. I see what you guys have done in the past and I don't understand why this is the one that's. It's something I said last week. I don't know why this is the one that's getting stuck in the mud like this. I mean, you have multiple oscar, like you have a oscar winner, you have oscar nominees you have, you know, you have this personnel around you and you just some can't figure this one. Out.
Speaker 1:Of all the movies and all the TV shows, all the projects that you're working on, this is the one that doesn't work out. Just something doesn't, something's not right, something's not sitting right about this project. So I wonder if it's a massive miscommunication that just boiled over into, you know, project dismay and demise. I don't know if it's something that's simple. I don't know if it's disagreement, because I know Mahershala Ali had a lot of creative control over this project and I wonder if, you know, marvel stepped in and said, no, we're going to do our thing, that we normally do, and he's he was like no, I'm, I want control over this, you know. So.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it just feels like it's one of those things that it's. It's just, you know, getting thrown back to the, to the drawing board, like from from stage one, and you know can't begrudge anyone for not wanting to be a part of that um, but at the same time, you know, you know, who knows, maybe it will be the best thing for it at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even Mia Goth's obviously been doing her press for Maxine and when they are at the premiere and they asked her like, even that got me concerned, just the way she said it. It's just like there's no, there's no active nature. And again, that's another person who's been, you know, extremely hot over the last couple years and you know this personnel you have on this film. You can't figure it out. It's just like this might have. When we were talking about the blade cast, we said this cast is incredible, especially after we found out me goth got added on to a tour. Like this is an incredible cast and you know, a lot of times simplicity is your best friend and I feel like there's something overly complicated about this production when I don't think it needs to be. And obviously that just starts with the script. So something might be, something might be, you know, battling each other. Um, it might be people, it might be the project in a person. So we shall see.
Speaker 2:We, we shall see, indeed, what else we got Dune, Some Dune news. This is the Denis Villeneuve corner. After Dune 2 came out kind of like the track for what his next few years were going to look like, what he was going to do another thing, and then he was going to do Dune Messiah, and now that has changed. So Dune Messiah will indeed be Denis Villeneuve's next film.
Speaker 1:I didn't genuinely think he was going to do, because I thought he was going to do Rendezvous with Rama or Cleopatra so he can, kind of you know, do a biopic, kind of you know a little bit calmer. And then they saw the returns on Dune, yeah, and they were like no, and they were like no, that's exactly what happened. They're like actually no, we love you, but make us another one of these, please.
Speaker 2:Make your buddy Greg and let's make another one. So yeah, I think that's pretty much what happened and you know, I think probably even he's probably riding that momentum also. He's probably very enveloped in this universe and this world and these characters and the script and he's probably like you know what, let's just, let's just do it like, let me just finish this off, let me just do my, do my trilogy, like, and then I have the rest of my life to do all my other projects that I can do. Um, but if I, if I stick the landing with this third movie, you know you got you got a case that this is one of the best trilogies of film trilogies of all time. And oh, yeah, you know, yeah, just do that.
Speaker 1:What are you battling with? You're battling with Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings, star Wars, star Wars, the original trilogy I'm talking a very huge, maybe two to the Dark Knight trilogy. Yeah, I think the second one holds it up and I mean, if you want to talk about it that way, we'll see after Messiah comes out if the second one is truthfully the best one, because I think Lord of the Rings is the only one that breaks that, because Godfather has that thing. I mean, if you want to compare trilogies this, well, obviously we have to see what Messiah brings. But, um, I brings, but just talking broad spectrum.
Speaker 1:For Denis himself, I mean he's got four projects that are confirmed now out of that. So obviously, dune Part 3 or Dune Messiah is the big one, obviously, for all of our sci-fi friends out there. Rendezvous with Rama something that he knew, that's something he wanted to do for a long time in his life, is something that he's going to get Cleopatra. I think that's something he wanted to do for a long time in his life. It's something that he's going to get Cleopatra. I think that's a really cool one. I don't think he's attacked a biopic yet. I don't think. Well, obviously, you know it's going to be. You can kind of bend a little bit more for something like this, but I don't think he's ever attacked a biopic yet and he's also going to do what. Is it? Nuclear war scenario? That's something that I'm actually pretty interested in.
Speaker 2:The spiritual sequel to Oppenheimer. Many are saying this. Yeah, I think it makes sense that, like I said, you don't have to put off. If you got the idea and you're ready to go, you might as well just do this. He's already said this is going to be the last Dune movie that he does, so you might as well just cap off the trilogy and then, like I said, you've got the whole rest of his career to make every other movie that he wants to make.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean obviously I'm in his corner of the structure that he wanted to do. Sure, you remember I told you I said I want him to do a dirty, disgusting movie like Sicario or prisoners again. But I just think of where he is and I told you my my super, you know, absolutely nuclear hot take is that you know you go from incendiaries to prisoners, to enemy, to Sicario, to arrival, to Blade Runner, to Dune, to Dune part two, to Dune part three, and then you add these three on. I mean you want to look at some of the greatest directors of all time.
Speaker 1:If he's able to operate on the same level that he is, like his worst movie is some people would dream to be his best, like their best movie, like they would give anything to make a movie of, whatever his worst movie would be. So if he's able to land the four of these, which I think Dune part three is going to land, obviously the one I'm. I don't know why I think that nuclear war scenario might be. I don't know why I think that nuclear war scenario might be a really good one. I have a good feeling about that. We might not get that movie for like 10 years the way he's operating, but who cares?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:Cleopatra. Like I said and somebody made a great point just have it be Zendaya. You already know her and I think that could be a rock at Zendaya her Oscar as well. To get her first Oscar Unless she wins it this year for for doing part two at a supporting role, but for a main role, that would be awesome. And then the one I'm personally most excited for rendezvous with Rama. Like, give me the, give me the weirdest sci-fi movie that you can possibly imagine. My only stipulation is I need Greg Fraser. If Greg is there, imagine.
Speaker 2:My only stipulation is I need greg fraser. If greg is there, then I'm, then I'm there. So, yeah, I I'm super excited for everything that he puts out. So, you know, whatever the try and then, obviously doom messiah is going to be, probably. I think it could be kind of like that, that kind of the ending, like, like the ending that you want out of the trilogy, like it could be, you know that the dune version of return of the king, like I truly think it can be that, especially with what part two is able to do, yeah, they're gonna have, I mean spoilers for the book, but they're gonna have to.
Speaker 1:They're gonna have to ramp it a little bit because messiahs it's.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's the old adage, like you know, usually the end doesn't come with a bang, it comes with silence and messiahs, a lot like that. Yep, I just think this is where this is where you need. You truthfully need to show your skill with the pen or the computer. You've got to show your writing skills in something like this. Yeah, but I mean, after all the movies that I just said, I'm just going to trust that he's able to do this. I have no. You could have asked me after Arrival and I would have said give him whatever he wanted to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree. And last bit of news some Star Wars news. So it is confirmed that Ben Mendelsohn will be returning for Andor Season 2 as Krennic. That makes a ton of sense, especially since you know Andor Season 2 is going to lead directly into Rogue One. Diego Luna's already not so subtly hinted that you're going to see some Rogue One characters return, and he said Diego Luna actually made a point that I made when we talked about Andor, which he said it's going to be really kind of really cool for people to watch Andor season two and then revisit Rogue One. Yes, and I totally agree with that. I think that's ultimately the best type of prequel, when it recontextualizes the thing that it's prequeling. I think that's the best thing that it can do and I think Andor Season 1 did that really well for the character of Cassian Andor and I think Andor Season 2 will do that for the wider scope of Rogue.
Speaker 1:One Incredible point. I actually love that. That makes the most sense when you look at Andor, season 1, it was such this personal odyssey and for lack of a better term. It put the war in Star Wars and what, truthfully, war is. War isn't battle after battle after battle. Oftentimes it's a political war, and what the prequels couldn't contextualize. Out of that, andor doubled down on that as well too. So for season two, to kind of you know, now we need to get the chips falling into place, so I'm looking forward to it. Obviously, I think Andor is one of the greatest things that Star Wars has ever produced, that Disney's ever produced. It's just, it's like the, it's like that gem. It's just like Loki, it's like that gem that gets thrown in amongst everything that's going on currently.
Speaker 2:So, so, whatever they want to do and obviously we love Ben Mendelsohn- yeah, and that's a character that, again, much like Cassian Endor in Rogue One, was a little undercooked, to be honest with you, and I think Endor season one did a great job of reconsexualizing Cassian and I think season two could do the same thing for Krennic, depending on how much Ben Mendelsohn is going to be involved.
Speaker 1:I need to see him interact with Stone's Sarsgaard as well too. I need that. I need it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be super sick. I mean, you know kind of. You know season one did that really well where they just like threw two actors in a room and were just like go for it, fellas. So I think you know season two can do a lot of that. Um, and, like I said, I'm really excited to see how it recontextualizes a lot of rogue one. I'd be inside. I'd be excited if they wanted to, uh, reintroduce donnie yen's character from rogue one.
Speaker 1:That would be interesting. I would, I would really enjoy that. I think, hopefully, you'd be down for something like that as well, too. I think that'd be really good. And again, to round out the world as well, too, that's something I want to see more of. If like the war piece, and it's like how, the, how the force users fit into this war piece, because it's almost like this how to explain this. It's almost like this you know this wild card, essentially because and I want to see them start to dip into the you know the bad half of the force as well too. Um, and how people like donnie n's character are more of like it's, it's neutrality, like I don't have.
Speaker 2:I don't really have a, you know, obviously I want good to come of all of this as well too, and I'm uh, and to some point he became a freedom fighter, but I want to see more of him and I also want to see like, as it relates to the force and kind of donnie n's character in rogue one was kind of an avatar for this like the force as this religious yes, sense sense, instead of it being like the Force just being like the magic, but the Force being like the actual religion that people follow and that makes so much sense on a show like this, where it's like you know, like I said, your political wars, like religion is a big piece of you know, a lot of times for war, religion gets staked into a lot of war.
Speaker 2:So I believe that using the, like your point, using the Force as a religion to add into this war, would just be the perfect way to cap it off, because that's kind of what that character did in rogue one, like everyone like kind of looked at him like he was a nut and he was like now you gotta trust in the force. Like the force is with me, I'm with you, know, one with the force. And like you know, it's always thing like, did the Force really protect him in that one sequence, or like was that just him? Like that's religion in a nutshell. Like is this really a divine power or is this just the person believing in the divine power so much that they're able to rise above their own state?
Speaker 2:You know, and I think that's a really interesting part and I think hopefully that's what Season 2 does is like, like I said, if everything that everyone's saying about it is that it's going to kind of recontextualize rogue one, I think that would be super sick. Um, like I said, that's what the best prequels do. Um, so, short of that, let's, let's, let's, uh, let's talk some, talk some stuff. So yeah, like I said at the top, deadpool 3 is being heralded as as the the mcu savior. Um, I don't think it's quite that dire. I don't know where you stand on it, but I don't think the MCU necessarily needs to be saved.
Speaker 1:No, I mean you know how I feel about the nostalgia aspect of things, when nostalgia is used as a plot point, and I think that's a very, extremely dangerous game to play. I mean, I guess I have the hot take about Spider-Man, no Way Home, where I don't think that that movie, especially the first half, doesn't feel like an actual, it doesn't feel like a full movie, like it feels like the first half has something missing, like it feels very I don't want to say the word cheap, but there's something that's not. It feels like there's something that's not real. And then that saber-toothed scene I got the same feeling where it feels like there's something that's not, feels like there's something fake, like there's feels like there's something that's overtly artificial and it's funny we talk about and or and, something like loki, where, like things like that feel like they're very real, like they feel like they're complete and you know it goes down to, you know the actual.
Speaker 1:What are you, what's the medium you're? You're putting in this, this into, you're putting this into film and television. So it's, you know it's like one. Some of them are doing the cinema and some of them are not, at the expense of nostalgia. Um, but I guess the the point I'm trying to make is it's more of a I don't know if this is a full-out save like I'm not naive enough to believe that it's not because you could just talk to people that have been fans of the mcu and it feels like the only thing they're excited for is this. That feels like anything they could have talked about, anything. Even the Fantastic 4 is not getting as much and like this is the one because they already know what they're getting out of this.
Speaker 2:I mean. To that point, though, I think what, to me, what would constitute a quote-unquote save is if this movie garners enough well-being and kind of positive reception that it helps, whatever the next project is. Like spider-man in my home didn't do that, yeah, you know. Um, you know, I don't even know what else to to to. I mean, they've done the nostalgia bit a few times now, but like I feel like to me, like what would constitute a save is whatever their next movie is. We don't even know what their next movie is after this captain america.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean you.
Speaker 2:What you would want is for deadpool to be so good to to, for it to not be like oh that was super cool that we got to see all these characters and wolverine one more time, but like, also make me excited for the next thing. Like, I feel like that's what the early phases of marvel did really well, where, you know, after iron man, you know it. You know, obviously people wanted to see the next marvel thing because iron man was so good, but I think they did a really nice job of one to the next, to the next to the next, of being like okay, maybe I don't know how Thor connects to Captain America, but I want to see Captain America because I quite like Thor. Thor was good. So I want to see the next thing. And I feel like that's kind of where you're seeing this oscillation of success and failure with the Marvel movies in the last few years.
Speaker 2:Guardians 3's success didn't translate to the Marvels Right Exactly, and that's the part that they have to solve. They have to figure out why is one? The sustainability MCU was built upon. One to the next, to the next to the next and everyone seeing everything. We haven't seen that with this last sect of movies. It kind of worked for a little bit in the beginning.
Speaker 1:Yep, 100%. A big piece is your uncontrollables too. Obviously, the Jonathan Major situation is an uncontrollable Chadwick Boseman passing away and, like you, have absolute uncontrollables that you can't, you can't plan for. But I think the issue that I had and it's something that we, we say about you know Chris Evans versus Anthony Mackie is they wouldn't even have thought about having Chris Evans out of a movie for five years and having Chris Evans out of a movie for five years and we haven't seen Anthony Mackie in a movie for five years.
Speaker 2:That is just a.
Speaker 1:He hasn't been in a movie since that game, and I mean I'll scream this until I'm blue in the face, but it's one of the biggest killers of the MCU at this point is that I don't feel like there's any main. There's no main characters right now. There's nobody that I. There was definitive main characters, the entire infinity saga. So once they wanted in contention against any sort of villain, I also cared about that villain as well too. At this point, there's nobody that I. There's nobody to kind of. Who am I following? I don't know who to. There's too many paths, there's too many strands of people to follow as well too.
Speaker 1:And then again, a big piece, the. It is the drastic difference in quality. I mean it. It is sometimes it is absolute night and day. I mean you get something like loki, where this show looks good, or the show looks good, it's written well. I care about all these characters, and that's to the, that's to the help of the show and the writers as well too. But then I trip back and I look at ant-man, quantum medium or thor 11, thunder and I say how was like? How are you comfortable giving this movie to the studio and being like this is? And how is the studio comfortable being like, yeah, this is what we're going to release, like something that's incohesive, that's, you know, sometimes nonsensical, like why is there so much ebb and flow? And you know, and so much you know, distance in between these projects in terms of quality?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great point and, to that end, obviously, like I said, our topic today is going to be things that saved other things, workshopping that a little bit. So, like I said up top, the gist of this is we're just going to kind of volley back and forth on some ideas of things that we feel kind of saved, whether it's a studio or a company or a concept, and I'll let you kick it off yeah, I mean I'll, I'll just start a little bit more broad instead of, you know, because I know the original plan is we were going to talk about actual shows and movies, but I wanted to go a little bit more broad.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to start with john wick saving action. Um, especially, you know, western action, because western action up until that point and again in the studios you were looking at I mean, the MCU was a huge culprit of this as well is the way your action was structured was very shaky cam, very quick cuts. And you know, obviously the big heel turn for that was Jason Bourne. Jason the Bourne movies were, and that was the point and it fits for the Bourne movies but it doesn't fit for everything. But everybody in Hollywood took that plan and they said we're all gonna do this. Shaky cam, very tight. You know very long lenses. You're gonna throw on there too, very, very tight. You know a lot of cuts, like every cut imaginable you're gonna use for something like this um to shield and mask.
Speaker 1:And then John Wick gets there and Chad Stahelski gets there and you're looking at this Western action hero that is full hand-to-hand, just full-out hand-to-hand, not a lot of cuts. You're going to see the action and you feel it a little bit more. Whatever might lack in a script for something like John Wick makes up for something that's your sell of the movie. I think John Wick was. I don't think people realize how important john wick was to modern movie making, modern action, because now it's to the point of and it's something I say all the time like, after 2014, if you're making an action movie, hey, let's call the, let's call the john wick guys that's. I feel like that. That happened in hollywood a lot yeah, I that's.
Speaker 2:when you said that, I was like, wait, that's actually a actually a really good call. I mean, that was and it was a movie that at the time wasn't really on the radar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was just the action star Keanu Reeves. Yeah, they're like wait, what is happening?
Speaker 2:And I mean by the same token, in the same year as John Wick.
Speaker 2:You get the Equalizer Again, which is and the Equalizer, I enjoy, I enjoy the equalizer I think it's really good, but it also kind of they're great parallels to one another as far as different type of action movie where, like, the equalizer was kind of still like I feel like action movies had this, had, action movies had like phases yeah, and the in the phase that the equalizer was in was in that same phase that I think, like taken launched, where it's like aging movie star, put him in a, put him in a thing, put him in an action thing, like against type and just let him cook for an hour and a half and you know, taken kind of started that and then the equalizer kind of perfected it, but that that kind of model was kind of becoming a little antiquated, like liam neeson kind of antiquated it himself by doing so many of them.
Speaker 2:Um, so john wick was really this breath of fresh air because you know on the surface level that it feels like a similar idea, like, oh, keanu reeves is gonna do like an action thing. And then you get to the actual action of john wick and you're like, oh, this is, this is elevated, like this is something different. And and I think that's backed up by the fact that when we did John Wick 4, these movies are still just. The John Wick movies are still ascending. We're four movies in and each one, you can argue, is better than the last, which is kind of nutty.
Speaker 1:Just look at the action movies after John Wick comes out. I mean a couple that I pulled from. I look at the action movies after John what comes out. I mean a couple that I pulled from, I look at. You know what they were doing with the bond movies after that? Or the action started to turn a little bit more, cause after cause. Skyfall comes out in 2013,. If I'm not mistaken, 2012, 2012, I think yeah.
Speaker 1:Um and obviously you have somebody like Roger Deakins and you have somebody like Sam Mendes to direct and shoot your movie. Like you know, obviously they're going to garner a little bit more professional Not that, you know, the Bourne movies weren't professional, but I think that everybody got a little comfortable because I think that might be a little easier. It is easier to shoot. You know quick cut. You know cut, quick, mask everything. And then it's not funny. It's funny. We talked about Liam Neeson. Whatever action movie he did another action movie in that time and he's flipping over a fence and there's nine cuts of him flipping over a fence. And you know you're like, oh, this is why this is easier. But then you get to John Wick and what Chad Stahelski was doing in team and you understand why that was so important too. And then you know somebody that really owned that and is took a run at that too, and you know they have their. Their company now is the director of of the fall guy.
Speaker 2:Um, you know what they're able to do, and paying an homage is why you know the stunt community is so important yeah, you know, I again like like with john wick, it's just like you're just blown away with how they're able to to one-up themselves, like it kind of goes to your like the the comfortability and the complacency point. They don't even feel comfortable and complacent within their own franchise because they keep upping themselves because one's great, obviously one.
Speaker 1:because one is like a shell shot, because, like you're, you're waiting for camera cuts and action cuts. You're like, wait a second, like why are? Why are we not? Why are we just letting this guy fight hand to hand? And we're seeing it, and it takes dedication from everybody too. And then you know two, three are still solid, and then you get to four, and four is just like we're going to do everything possibly that we've ever wanted to do as a stunt community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's crazy man, that's that. Yeah, and I think you're right, like of John Wick, kind of not extended to life. It's not like action movies were going to go extinct, but it reinvigorated the genre and anytime you can get something that does that, especially this late in the game in the history of time, um, like I said, I think action, more than most movie genres, has those kind of definitive phases. You know what I mean and I think we're in you could conceivably call it the John Wick phase of action movies. I'm curious to see what the next. I think the Matrix thinking about Keanu Reeves the Matrix kind of phase was a thing in the late 90s, early 2000s, like everyone was doing the.
Speaker 1:It was more performative, it was a bit more the high wire stuff, exactly the slow motion.
Speaker 1:Right. And then, like I said, jason Bourne did for what John Wick did, like Jason Bourne came along and it was the counter to that, jason Bourne was. It felt gritty, it felt real, it felt like you know, you felt like you were also in danger. Like that's how it felt. And then you know, obviously, when complacency happens, that's when it gets a little bit dangerous. And then you get to 2014 and John Wick comes out, and then it's another era comes out. It's just like you know, plant the camera down, teach these actors how to fight and have them actually fight.
Speaker 2:I think the Bond point that you made is really great too, because Bond, the Bond franchise kind of stayed within it's. It endured like that whole time period and you can see, like to your point, like the Bond movies kind of evolve as the genre is also evolving.
Speaker 1:Because I think Skyfall, obviously Skyfall has great action in it. It is, it is the best of daniel cred, like by far it is the best daniel cred bond movie, um, but you can that one's more of a little bit more of like a psychological war, like it has a lot of psychological warfare in there and you know, though, it's a lot more bondage than the other movies, uh, but then once you get to uh, once you get to specter and you start to see the like you can, you can tell that you know they're starting to adapt to the different ways of what these movies and how Hollywood started to change. I mean to even go further with the point. How many times were we seeing, like you know, the John Wick team goes on to this project, john Wick team goes on to this project Like it kept happening and it was like a selling point for these projects. Especially the streaming services started using that to their advantage as well, too. Point for these projects, especially the streaming services started using that to their advantage as well too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think another kind of franchise that did the you know kind of like Bond kind of evolved with the genre. I think the Mission Impossible movies also do that. Yep, when you compare the early era Mission Impossible movies to something like Fallout which Fallout obviously is great and takes, you know, especially the fight scenes and the action scenes takes a lot from what the action movies were at the time Very close quarters, very gritty, very real. And I think the early Mission Impossible movies obviously were predicated on the stunt work and all that stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because one is like the late era of the 90s, because it came out in 96, where it still had that touch of you know there's, I think, the 80s and 90s the blockbuster mentality was still true for action as well. What's your favorite action movie of all time, or what do you think is one of the best? I mean the actual action.
Speaker 2:Man, that's a great question. I would say probably it depends on the era. John Wick is right now probably my favorite action franchise going and you know it doesn't feel like recency bias to even say that at this point like you've had four movies that are just sensational and build one top of the other. Um, but as far as like those early eighties action movies, I mean I've always loved Rambo, I've always loved Indiana Jones. Um and again, indiana Jones is not something that's predicated on hand to hand combat, it's predicated on just like set pieces and just putting a character, kind of like Die Hard also built this mode of just putting a character in an impossible position and seeing how they work themselves out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'd say it'll get back to my point. But I look at two movies specifically and I just picked one that's kind of like normal and it's funny to say for action normal and then one that's a little bit more fantastical. So I think terminator 2 is the, in terms of something that's a little bit more fantastical, that I think that is one of the greatest action movies ever made. I think it's phenomenal, it's j's James Cameron being at above the top of his game. And then the less fantastical, just the normal is heat, I think heat and heat. Heat battles itself to the, to the best places that you can ask, because it's it's also you're using the actual acting from the film as well, as incredible too, um.
Speaker 1:But you know, going further, it's like you look at your errors and then you go down like there's definers it's something that you think about for sports as well too like who's the definers of this era, like john wick is the definer of the era that we're in right now. And then you know we're gonna see what the next era is gonna bring. Because it feels like I why am I blanking on the director's name for um? For for the fall guy, um? But you know, I feel like that might be because there's there's a little bit more of like. Yeah, david Leach, like I feel like, and obviously he has his own production area, he has his own stunt started on John Wick Right, and it's exactly where it comes.
Speaker 1:Like David Leach was with Chad Stahelski and they were so you know. They were so predicated on the fact that, like we need this't be a lazy venture that we're, that we're stepping into, so that might be the. It might be like a mixture of that with, like how top gun's been doing going about things, like the way that joe kaczynski operates, like it's gonna probably be an amalgamation of that might might lead into the modern age yeah, yeah, no, it's a it's a great.
Speaker 2:It's a great, a great kind of opener for how a singular movie sometimes, or a singular project, can sometimes save an entire genre. And I guess mine, my first one, is going to be on a similar path of that and it's honestly less of an objective one and more of a subjective one. And it's how Iron man 2008 literally saved Marvel yeah, as a whole. How Iron man 2008 literally saved Marvel yeah, as a whole, as a whole, as a whole company Marvel in its entirety would not be standing if Iron man didn't work. You know, we talked about it when we talked about Iron man, when we did our retrospective on Iron man, about how, what, just a massive gamble this was for them to kind of, after selling off all their most notable, most famous characters to other movie studios um, spider-man, the x-men, fantastic four, the incredible hulk and they just kind of looked around and were like, well, we got, we got nothing left. I have nothing left but iron man.
Speaker 2:Um, and they decided we're gonna take one last stab at being viable. Um, we're gonna make our own movie studio, we're gonna make an iron man movie, and then we're just take one last stab at being viable. Um, we're gonna make our own movie studio, we're gonna make an iron man movie, and then we're just gonna see what happens. Um, if it works, great. If it doesn't work, you know we're done, we're sunk. Um, and it turns out to be the linchpin of the single greatest cinematic movie achievement ever. Um, I mean it, it's hard to save something. Any more than that. Everything about that movie is a risk. You give it to Jon Favreau, who obviously had put together a couple of decent things.
Speaker 1:At the time he did Swingers, but that was my point. He comes off of Elf and then he's given this Iron man. You've given this universe where this iron man, yeah, you've given this universe where they're like, if this, if this fails, we are, we're done, like we are eternally done. And you know, I I made this point to you a couple days ago when we were talking. I said I always like watching you know things, directors, or like universes, first movies, because I like to see what they were doing when they first started and just to see some of the swings they were taking in. Iron man is always refreshing because again, there's this like there's this real nature to Iron man, like there's there's this like lack of art of, like artificial that goes to Iron man, which is funny because obviously it still has a lot of CGI, obviously it still has those things. But comparatively that movie still holds up against, you know, movies that came out last year. That movie still holds up.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and I mean just, I mean talking about the, the chances you're taking. They even took a chance with their casting. Yep, um, marvel, notably, did not want robert downey jr in this movie, but john favreau was like, no, actually this movie probably doesn't work without him. Um, obviously this is robert downey jr coming off of a lot of personal trouble. He's just kind of started getting it back together at this point. Um, he had just come off of zodiac. Um, at this point in time, and people were like, all right, maybe he's starting to figure himself out. But now you're gonna ask him to be the front man for a multi, you know 100 million dollar movie and you're like, can he, can he pull this off? Yep, and it just turned out to be.
Speaker 2:You know, you can also argue that iron man 2008 saved robert downey jr as well, um, not just marvel, you know, it saved robert downey jr and and kind of propelled him to. Obviously he wins the oscar for oppenheimer and it's just a culminate, like that was the culmination of what Iron man helped him do. And I mean, you know that's everyone is is good in that movie, but he is, so he's transcended, right.
Speaker 1:Um, it's as close to like a one man show in that type of movie as you're ever going to get Cause a lot of times in movies like that you'll get like a side character that's so lovable Like you don't get that anywhere else like it. Who's the closest? Is it? John favreau himself is happy. Is that the closest one? It's that or pepper, or pepper, but I don't even think it's particularly, even remotely close.
Speaker 2:I think it's just like you said it is a very one-man show and it's just one of those movies where you know it's easy sometimes to be like I could see x, you know x actor in that role. Um, there's no shot. There's no shot that that movie works without him and, like I said, it ends up launching the MCU, which is, in terms of where you could have gone to, where you ended up going. It's one of the biggest variances ever. It's absolutely insane.
Speaker 1:Let's see what I got. I'm going to go with what Tom Cruise did for movies himself. Okay, Make the case. I mean again, it's this you know what's so funny? When the king's in the seat, then they garner all the attention. The MCU is the king right.
Speaker 1:So not only there's a lot of incredible good that comes out of it, but there's also the other side, and it's my point that I made earlier about complacency. Like we started to get to a place where Marvel movies just felt complacent and you know, if that's your, if that's the King tide that's rolling in all the all the ships, then everybody's going to try to kind of, you know, succumb to that. So it's more of this idea that how hell-bent he is on the experience of the movie and I mean coming out of a pandemic too that's the big piece that I always think about of, like you know, nothing will ever change. And I'm trying to think of other theater experiences that I've had in my entire life. And obviously, you know, end game on paper should be number one.
Speaker 1:I don't know that when we saw Top Gun, Maverick, that was a feeling that I'd I'd never felt something like that in a movie theater before. I'd never, and I'd been. You know how many movies have I seen? Um, you know, I live in a movie household, so I was seeing a lot of movies in theaters when I was a kid maybe movies I was too young to see which is great, that that's really good and that's, you know. That's why I am who I am. But there's something about top gun, maverick just was. It's everything you want out of a theater experience of itself, you know, and that doesn't come without somebody like tom cruise. You know however vigorous that he was on the set. You know, like I said, he was hell-bent on the fact that this needs to be an actual experience, but it still needs to be good. Cinema, Like that's such an important thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great point and I think you're right in the sense of like, I think with Endgame, I think you kind of expected certain things, like certain reactions, and you know you kind of expected the audience at large to react a certain way. But with top gun maverick, like I don't think, I don't think I was expecting the amount of like buy-in from the audience that you got.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, you know, we talked about, when we talked about that movie, however, long ago, that was that when that third act starts and you can feel and see everyone in the theater like lock in, yeah well, we always joke about it, but there was a, there was a woman that was sitting next to us and, um, obviously, in the third act, like you, you feel you know, when the mission starts, and again there's something, there's a beautiful simplicity about top gun maverick, but when he's lifted in the carrier and then he picks his team, and then he, he lifts up, like, and then you know, the engines start going and it's like this woman physically sat up in her seat. When it happened, I was like, oh, shoot, like this is this is real. Like there's something that's ever so real. And I mean, you look at projects like mission impossible, fallout, mission impossible, dead reckoning. Um, obviously we have top gun maverick, like, it's this nature, and obviously christopher mccrory has a lot to do with this as well too.
Speaker 1:But it's just this idea of like, if we're gonna make a movie, um and this is why I love movies like, why would we ever be lazy about something like this? Why would we ever take a shortcut about something like this? Like, if this needs like, if you know, athletes have their championships in this, like, why would we not treat it anything less than that? Like, why could we not have the biggest spectacles and I I mean my, my, one of my big things is is practicals, like you know, that's why I show like Andor works, like, that's why a lot of there's a big point that I'm going to make in a little bit but practicals can save. They truthfully can, and when things don't feel artificial and they feel real.
Speaker 1:You know, guardians 3 also is a. That movie, you know, operates on a huge, huge practicality standpoint to the fact of, like you know, the George, a huge, huge practicality standpoint to the fact of, like you know, the george lucas, like build the sets, like why are we not building sets? Like not everything you know and obviously a perfect intention is like the batman, where you use the volume. But it's funny because that's again your personnel, like greg frazier was greg frazier used the volume on the mandalorian and the batman and then everybody else wanted to use the volume and they were like why isn't the volume working? I was like, because you don't have greg frazier, you don't know how to operate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it's not the tools, yeah it's not the, it's not the tool, it's the person. So, um, it's just like, like I said, I, I think his, his overwhelmingly, you know, understanding that, like cinemas can save, like it's just this thing, that's like it's, it's something that you know, it's, it's otherworldly the idea. It's the only media that consumes all other media, that uses all the media inside of it too, and to understand that, how important this was, especially at the time it was coming out. Like you know, this is this. That was the one that cracked the door back open because it was starting to close and the streamers were taking advantage of it, and he said no, no, no, no, no, my watch yeah, not on my watch the theater is still a place to go, it's a communal place to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's just, it's a great point, also in retrospect, just because of the run that that movie went on. Yeah, yeah, top Gun, in particular. Like we're, you know, months down the line and we're like, this movie is still making money. Huh, like this is, this is insane. Um, the run that movie went on was just insane and it's just testament to your point. Like it feels like people, people wanted that movie to happen, like they, they were waiting for a movie like that to like galvanize them and you know, all, all props to tom cruise is that that's the movie that he put out and continues to put out. Yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a great one. Was, I'm all right. So this one, this one, this one might make make some eyes roll because it feels like a typical answer, but I'm going to say that HBO is the last of us saved the video game adaptation.
Speaker 2:Sure, you know, I think that these projects and these properties felt like they had a ceiling To the point where it was either laughably bad or it was like A cult classic, almost. Yeah, like kind of fun. Like, yeah, that was kind of fun. I kind of felt that way with Uncharted. Uncharted was kind of that, it was okay. It wasn't transcended, it wasn't remarkable that like it was, it was okay. Um, it wasn't transcended, it wasn't, you know, remarkable, but it was kind of fun and it did some things with some characters that I really like. Um, I never saw the warcraft movie, but the warcraft movie, by all intents and purposes, does that like like, yeah, that was warcraft, like cool, um, even going to the kind of like the mid-2000s with the tomb raider movies with angel Jolie, like that was, the Tomb Raider movie was like the first, like real crack at it. When they're like we're going to put a major star in this movie and we're going to adapt this thing, and the first one's pretty good and then the other ones are kind of they fall into that wayside. And then years and years and years they keep every so often they keep trying one um Assassin, and years they keep every so often they keep trying one um assassin's creed. They put michael fast bender in and they gave it a shot and it was. It didn't work. Um, the only ones that ever had any type of sustainability were the animated ones, um, because obviously those are the easiest ones to do, right, I mean, mario made a billion dollars um, detective pikachu went really really well, um, but they're animated.
Speaker 2:You know, sonic um, the second one, when they learned their lesson, and they were like we're just gonna do actual sonic um, they learned their lesson, but then, but then and then, and then the last of us comes out and this was, you know, you and I have talked about kind of I think we've been around long enough that you can chronicle us like the inception to the, to the, to the delivery of the project. Like you know, as soon as we heard craig mason was rolled, we were like, oh, okay, like that's, that's a pretty major, like boost, like that that they're, that they're trying something, um, hbo is gonna do it. You're like, oh, oh, hbo is doing it, huh. And then obviously, you get Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey and you're like okay, like there's something happening here. And then we got that first trailer and we were like this is this, is it like this? This could be the thing that like that take that makes people take these things seriously. And that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 2:It turned out they finally cracked the idea behind the video game adaptation and so many of them fell into this trap. Doom fell into this trap. Assassin's Creed fell into this trap. A bunch of them fell into this trap of like, like, let's just make it feel like the video game and like that doesn't translate right, it doesn't translate to, to a, to a tv show or to a movie. Like doom had that the first person sequence. That just completely takes you out of it.
Speaker 2:Um, assassin's creed obviously had, like, the animus and the, you know all that stuff, and they tried to make it too video gaming like it doesn't work. So the last of us was like no, what we're gonna do is we're gonna take this video game property and we're just gonna make a tv show, right, and I think they cracked it, like they cracked it and since then we've gotten fallout. Um, we're getting ghost of tsushima with chad stahelski, right, yep, um, and it just feels like these things have been granted another life, where people are like oh, it's a video game thing, but now people are like oh, it's a video game thing yeah, good like this actually might end up being good, and I mean that's a great point about you know, it goes back to one of the central themes of I guess this or central ideas of I guess what this podcast is.
Speaker 1:You know, know, one of the big things we hold, we hold, we have standards, people and one of those standards is personnel. Your personnel is super important. So, you know, to bring Craig Mason in is was your first win, and you know you got him while he was hot too, because obviously he made Chernobyl. And you know, one thing I love about you know his career path is he was doing comedy like he was. He was. He did train wreck, which, on a rewatch that I recently did, that movie is extremely funny, um, but that movie's kind of a little bit smart as well too, and craig bays is a very smart person. So, um, you know, to bring him in, uh, one of the big thing is to keep neil druckman there too, because that's a that's what a lot of these adaptations suffer from. They probably send one email to the person that made it and then they said, hey, you got any points. And they send the email and they're like all right, let's go, we don't need you. But you know Neil Druckmann was a set.
Speaker 2:Neil Druckmann directed any of the episodes right, he directed, I think, episode I can't remember. He directed, oh, he directed the Left Behind episode.
Speaker 1:Right. So you know, obviously keeping the person who made the thing and you know Sandman's a great point to that as well too Like the people that worked on the original thing, they probably should have some say if it was successful in the first media or the first medium that it was about.
Speaker 2:Especially when it's something so cinematic.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, I'm going to dip into the comic realm for a little bit, okay, and I'm going to give you two in the comic realm, that's fine. I'm going to give you two in the comic realm, but I'm going to start with Chris Claremont. Not only saving I think Chris Claremont helped save Marvel Comics themselves and also Chris Claremont brought about a new order for Marvel and comic storytelling as well too. Because you know, at the point where Jim Lee, or Jim Lee, at the point where Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were with the X-Men, they were done. The X-Men, they were done. They were, the X-Men were, were completely done. There was X-Men. I believe they were getting ready to get canceled. If they weren't canceled at the point, um, where'd you get up to issue 62 or 63.
Speaker 1:And you know it was kind of, it wasn't boring, but it just was run of the mill, like a kid can pick this up from a comic book store. Just read this. You know that was it. It was felt very, you know. You know, throw the, you know your comic panel in a newspaper, ish, essentially for the X-Men. And you know what Claremont does is he adds diversity, he adds it's not just that, the biggest true Testament of what made that Claremont run special is that it was an.
Speaker 1:It was an understanding of, you know, social issue, which you know it doesn't get started without Stanley. But it was also characters Like you bring in Colossus, colossus, banshee, storm, wolverine. Like you're bringing in all these classic Nightcrawler, all these classic X-Men that we know. But you know it's pulling stories like God loves man kills, stories that we get in live action nowadays. It was so important that somebody steps in and is like no comics can be for everybody and like we're going to reflect what's actually going on, these real-world things that are going on as well too. And you know some actual, you know real storytelling, not just this.
Speaker 2:like Magneto pops up, you know cackles for a little bit, moves a piece of metal and then the X-Men deal with him like no, we're actually going to deal well too yeah, that's a that's a really great point, especially in the in the comic book realm of things, where, you know, as, as time evolves, readers also evolve and I think people, you know, at a certain point people stopped thinking about comics as like these kind of side things or like these goofy things that you just pick up and just have a good time with, but people started to turn to comics and look for real substance. You know, and I think that, to your point, like that kind of helps launch a whole nother subsect of things to to where you get stuff like. You get like graphic, then you have like the graphic novel starts to become popular.
Speaker 1:Don't jump the gun, cause that's my second piece. Ooh, continue, because that second piece is Watchmen. Watchmen absolutely changed comic books for the better, in my opinion. I mean, you know, watchmen is the only comic book that's on the Times 100 best-selling books from the 1900s. It's the only one.
Speaker 1:Think about, you know, I always like to say comics are the dumbest thing on planet earth. They're stupid, they're, they're idiotic, they're just, they're very dumb. But I mean being serious about it. Comics are. You know, I've seen some of the most incredible storytelling come from comics, like I've seen some just absolutely wonderful odysseys come out of comics. But you know, one stands alone and it's watchman. Watchmen, truthfully turned, it made you think about the idea of what a superhero is, because it was very, it was extremely black and white, until the Watchmen comes out, and you know that tagline it's. It's the same thing from fall Like war. War never changes. Like who watches the Watchmen? Like these, these are people like these are actual human beings that you know do bad stuff and that are not just morally good like that's not real, that's. That's not a that's not a real thing. So, um, what the watchman does it? It adds credibility to comics as well too. It makes it something that can be like 100.
Speaker 1:Look at these. You know they're not just these goofy characters like these, are some characters that have real ideologies and you know obviously it's a play on on. You know the natural order of things that you talk about Dr Manhattan or it talks about, you know how to police the situations. Or when you talk about characters like Alamand and then you get into characters like Rorschach and I mean you know Ozymandias' plan as well too of like, these are some actual insane things that even you know contextualize, and you know the only difference is that it's just packaged in a graphic novel. That's the only difference. So, um, and then my, I'm gonna add a third point to the to the piece. Keep it going, and that's the new 52 for dc I think 52 absolutely saved dc comics at that point.
Speaker 1:Um, because the new 52 comes out and I I forget what year it was. I think it was either 2009 or 2011,. I believe the New 52 started. What's happening in movies during 2008 to 2012? The MCU is just absolutely getting ready to take everybody. Also at that point, DC's sort of in a limbo at that point, because what are we getting during that time? I don't think we have. What did we get? We were getting the end of the Dark Knight trilogy. There are some people that aren't fans of the Dark Knight Rises as well too, and, mind you, that's the only.
Speaker 2:DC movie that's happening?
Speaker 1:Oh, there's another DC movie around that time, and that's Green Lantern around that time as well too. So look at where dc's at in terms of a lot and you know. Obviously they're animated stuff, but animated is only so accessible to people and there's such this contrast between the people that watch the animated stuff at that time and the people that were watching the dark knight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like there was no middle ground where there there is a hundred percent now. So dc goes full revamp and it's something that dc is not, not, you know, unfamiliar with. Obviously, their crisis events are usually where they try to take these heavy swings. But the new 52's whole ideology was new readers like we need to be able to drop these books and new readers can jump in. You know, it's something that helped me start reading or get back into comics was the new 52.
Speaker 1:It was like yep, you know the batman stuff. Like I love where they start with batman. Like batman is already batman by the time the new 52 comes out. Like green lantern is already green lantern. But I'm gonna learn some stuff. But it's such an incredible jumping on point. Like a lot of the stuff that you see out of dc movies come from the new 52. Most of the stuff, if I'm being honest, comes out of the new 52 as well too. So it's such this. It was such this important piece, just like, you know, your iron man. Like without the new 52, I don't know where dc comics. And then it also helped them as a whole because you're getting your all-star, which is you know, which is jeff johns. At that point, jeff johns was like the golden boy of dc at this point after his green lantern run. So you know, hey, give him not only give him, you know the reins a little bit, you know he's also going to take the justice league as well too. So all things made sense. Um, and, like I said, most of the modern stuff you're getting out of live action, it's, it's because of the, it's because of the new 52 and it just streamlines everything right you know, to the point where a the, the readers aren't confused right
Speaker 2:when they're like what's batman doing? What is this superman story, what is this? Um, and the, the, the writers and the artists themselves also have a streamline to follow, like, look, we're kind of starting over, but not really, but not really. And just take this character and take them wherever you want to take them. But here's the foundation, we're giving you the foundation and then just go right, and I think that was a really smart idea because, you know, dc think is more of a perpetrator of this than Marvel is. But like it just gets so insane. Yeah, like this character is doing this and this on this Earth and this timeline and this reality, and he's a different character in this thing and it just, you know, that's why they did Crisis originally and that's why they did the New 52 the second time, because after Crisis they cannibalized themselves again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because Crisis on 84, crisis on Infinite Earths comes out in 84 and it's just, it's this I'm talking, it's chaos, it's absolute like, and I always one of my comic hot takes is like Crisis is like, and I always one of my comic hot takes is like Crysis is like, crysis is a bit unreadable to some points, because Crysis is so you can't understand in your mind who and where and why and when and how these people are existing at this point. Like there's no, like logic just gets thrown out the window during Crysis at all points, because anything can just happen at any point. Like the fact that the cw was able to even, you know, say what you will. The fact that they were able, even able to take that story and do something with it is just it's, it's great job, great job?
Speaker 1:yeah, I don't care what your budget was, I don't care how cheesy it was. Great job trying to wrangle in that that you know. I don't want to say mess, because crisis is still cool, um, but it was needed. It was needed at the point to like sever at that point. But then they, they did the same thing again after that they got themselves and then they got to infinite.
Speaker 1:Infinite crisis was a little bit less of like a, you know it was a little bit less. And then you get into final crisis and you're like, oh Lord Jesus, like this is, this is too much to handle again, yeah. And then I, like we said, like the new 52 was a perfect spot to be like these characters. And you know what DC's advantage is always something I say about I feel like these movies should never struggle. Dc's advantage is I go on the street Batman, superman, wonder Woman, I probably people will probably know who those three are If they never touched the comic book. They're going to know who Flash is, the fast guy, green Lantern might be a little bit more difficult, but like their core characters, like Marvel doesn't have that without the MCU. Like their core characters besides Spider-Man, hulk, wolverine you probably don't know, but like that's Superman, like that's.
Speaker 1:I can go any era of time since Superman incepted. Like oh, that's Superman. Like Batman's the same. Like oh, that's Batman and Batman's the same. Like oh, that's Batman. And like that's Wonder Woman. Like those are the three that you hold firm on. So we'll take the core of what those characters are and we're going to and we'll let these writers do what they want. A little bit on these.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great point. Speaking of the CW, that was going to be my next one. Arrow season five saved not just that show show but potentially that entire universe. Yes, yes, yes, because Arrow Season 4 was a train wreck.
Speaker 1:Yes, To the point where Stephen Amell even admitted that that's the season that is just. We don't talk about that. We don't talk about Bruno. That was a horrible mess.
Speaker 2:We don't talk about Arrow Season 4. They completely lost the plot and the feel for why that show was so good they. What they ended up doing with arrow season four was they turned it into a cw show. Yep, they took, they made it about like the relationship drama and they tried to make it a little more, a little more light-hearted, a little more fun, a little more jokey, quippy. Um, you know, I just remember, I remember watching the first episode of season four. After you know and they're oliver's retired, he's living in like whatever neighborhood. That was like fun town, usa wherever in suburbs usa wherever he was, and you know every.
Speaker 2:The color palette is so much brighter. Um, obviously, felicity and Smokey have failed this omelet. And then season four just turns into this. They built the whole mystery box of someone died and you don't know who died the whole season, until you get to the reveal. They introduced magic in Arrow, season four, which is just so not what that show is. Um, they introduced magic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, season four, um, which is just so not what that show is, it's just you know the broader spectrum and the broader stroke of the. What happened on season four. It was just such a, it was such a portrayal of what you had worked for and you know to the point about credibility. Like arrow had the biggest in the universe itself, had the huge, biggest uphill battle because, again, you know the king of this situation. It's funny how much of this bounces off the mcu. But like you have this universe that's fully fledged and fully realized.
Speaker 1:And then you get to arrow and it's like you're the joke at this point, like any way you want to split it. You're the joke because your budget's not even your budget's, not even a percentage of what they have. You know you're dealing with. The network you're dealing with is like this is the, this is like the the teen to young teen, to young adult, to single mom, like network. At this point, like you know you're coming off Dawson's Creek, like you're coming off these shows and you're like uh-oh, like we can't afford to do this. And then like, especially when you get into Arrow, season two, it's like that's when you're like, okay, like this is starting to become like decently credible, like this is becoming watchable, and then it gets good, and then it gets very good, and then you get to something like arrow season four. It's just like what? Why are we betraying everything that made us what we were?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's just like I said. It introduces magic like the cast gets expanded like tenfold.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it just feels like everybody's phoning it in at that point.
Speaker 2:Yup and then. But then some, from out of out of the darkness comes the light. Um, you get arrow season five, which everyone said Stephen Mel included. This was going to be it. Season five was going to be the end and then season five happened and the I'll never forget it. The first episode of five is a almost like a direct refutation of arrow season four, down to the point like they rehash. They rehash almost beat for beat the um, the sequence in the pilot where he, he gets tied up, he, you know, does the, the bit with thumbs and he breaks out and he grabs the guy and he's like no one can know my secret and he snaps the guy's neck. And that was the writer's room letting us know we're going back to our roots, we're so back.
Speaker 1:We're so back. We've never been more back.
Speaker 2:We're going back to our roots, and it propelled another three seasons after that, just off the strength of what Arrow Season 5 did.
Speaker 1:You know what Arrow does very well and I think it does it the best in the entire MCU, in the entire Arrowverse. When their villains are good, their seasons are good. I will actually die on that hill. When the villain's good, the season's good. I mean, give me any random season. Don't give me any random season from the Arrowverse, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:Flash season four Perfect. That's why I said that Right. So Flash season four Perfect. That's why I said that Right.
Speaker 1:So Flash season four is I think it's the worst season of the Flash only because the back half seasons of the Flash were in the COVID days. So I think it was a little tougher for them to get everybody back and everybody on board and they had to kind of take some shortcuts. But you know, the flash season four didn't have an excuse, like there was no excuse, and well, I think you know the thinker himself is a good concept because again, like you're not going to use speed to beat me this time, the I feel like the writers weren't smart enough to you to write a smart character like that.
Speaker 1:They weren't smart enough to do that yeah so, yeah, it turned out, you know they it's. They started to get outran by this character that they didn't know what to do with. Like they it's. It's the same thing that you do for, like your Superman's, like one. When there's not somebody, that's when somebody doesn't know how to write that character, usually they run away from you, like they run out of your hands.
Speaker 1:It's something that Tarantino says like I'm only giving the foundation for what my characters like. Essentially, my character should be writing themselves Like I should. I'm, I should be on autopilot by that point, um, and I should let their actions of what I set up for them be the ones that carry. It shouldn't be me trying to outsmart what's going on and I feel like the thinker outsmart it's funny like the thinker outsmarted the writers of, of which turned out, you know, a villain I thought was going to be good turned into one of the worst villains and a great performance, turned out to be ended up being one of the worst villains out of the, out of the Arrowverse.
Speaker 1:And then you contrast that with Arrow Season 5 you get one of the best villains because it's personal, the performance is great. I still don't care what you put my man in now, I just don't trust him.
Speaker 2:She-Hulk was a perfect example of that.
Speaker 1:I was waiting for it. I was waiting for him to do something horrible and he just was a great guy. That was it. So, yeah, yeah, prometheus was Same thing for Avid Elementary. I'm watching Avid Elementary and I'm waiting for it to happen. I'm waiting and it just won't go. Yeah, man he's such a perfect counter for Oliver as well, too. If Deathstroke was like your Lex Luthor to Oliver, then Prometheus was like your Bizarro. This is the twisted version of what you could have came out with, what you could have came out of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I love, I mean, everything about it was set up. It was so set up. It was set up so perfectly.
Speaker 1:Vigilante twist was great too, because you obviously, and in the comics his character was vigilante. That's why that twist even worked even well, Cause you're nerds and you think the Arrow writer room because this is the era where all your new rock stars and all your it started to really start popping off, so you think the writer's room used that to the advantage. Yes, and they were like all these theory, people are going to just run rampant with one idea of this has to be Vigilante.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they planted Vigilante and Adrian Chase.
Speaker 1:At the same time. In the confines of, and they had multiple times where he would leave on like I need to go, and then vigilante would immediately show up. You're like, yeah, we're just waiting. All we're waiting for at this point is the people in universe to learn, and then they just didn't do that yeah, he ends up being prometheus and you know it.
Speaker 2:I mean it's some of the best work that that show's ever done.
Speaker 1:Yep, was in season five and one of the best finales as well, too.
Speaker 2:out of the entire arrowverse, that finale, finale is phenomenal, yeah that finale is one of the best episodes of that universe that you're ever going to get. And you know they never quite reached that height again with season 6, 7, or 8. But I mean as far as resurrection and recovery of a universe, because if Arrow falls after season 4, you're done.
Speaker 1:The whole thing is toast. The only thing that would have survived was the Flash. The Flash would have been the only one, because the Flash, after season 4, was on season 2, which season 2 of the Flash, you can argue. You can split hairs between season 1 and season 2 being the best.
Speaker 2:I mean, if Arrow falls, you lose.
Speaker 1:Black Lightning doesn't get made at that point, supergirl probably gets at that point coming from cbs to cw. Like you could probably chop that one as well too, and save legends of tomorrow. Probably tomorrows is done um and you lose all that.
Speaker 2:And then you lose what you know. Obviously one of the best things about that cw universe is the interconnectivity. Like arrow falls, like that's it, and's it, you lose all that interconnectivity.
Speaker 1:And then forward thinking. You don't get Superman and Lois as well too, and that was probably the biggest one that you needed out of all. In the modern age, that's the biggest one you needed out of everything.
Speaker 2:So Arrow Season 5 really gave them enough legs to get to Season 8, to get to Crisis and to send everything off a little more nobly than perhaps it would have if it just falls after season four and it's like solid storytelling overall because you know, if that fails, then you know it's the main character point that I talk about.
Speaker 1:Like structuring Crisis to follow to be like Oliver's swan song, made it even more watchable, you know what I mean. Like by the time you get to Christ, it's. It's also the arrow, season eight finale is, you know it's, it's that in crisis, our hand in hand at that point. So Oliver and Barry are essentially, and that's what you want. Why would I? I want Oliver, barry and car as the main, because that's the three that are up, yep 100%.
Speaker 2:I guess we'll each do one more Sure. Go ahead, you go. I just went, I did Arrow. Go ahead. Oh, you want me to go Sure? Alright, I'm going to do a fun one. Fast Five save Fast and Furious.
Speaker 1:I just I loathe the fact that you're right.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely right, just both in terms of the franchise itself and the style of movie that it was, that it was trying to be. Um, fast five is the. The hinge point of these are just street racing movies too.
Speaker 1:All right, because fast one and two are like these are fast one, two and tokyo drift are. These are street racing movies. And then the Fast and the Furious. No, no, fast and Furious. Fast and Furious 4 was like no, we're secret agents now. And everybody's like huh.
Speaker 2:And there's still a little bit of realism and a little bit of stuff going on.
Speaker 1:It's so crazy. We made the point about the action point might have been the best take we took out of this whole thing. Because you look at, you know what I compare that to. I compare it to a little bit of mission impossible 3. Just the way that the movie feels because it's that mid the mid 2000s has a very distinct feel about the movies yeah, so fast and furious also deals with that feel of the movie. So it was like this this you know, gritty action star that's. You know again, closer camera angles and really personal, like get up and close, like all those things were happening too. So and then you get the Fast Five, and Fast Five is the best. It's the best one, it's the best one. It's the unironically best one, because the ironically best one is Fast X.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fast X is ironically best one, because the ironically best one is fast x. Yeah, fast x is is fast five, fast x is is paying for the sins of fat, or fast five is paying for the sins of fast sex, right, because if you don't get fast five you don't get fast sex. Right, but you have to get fast five to get six, seven and eight, right. So, um, obviously fast five just goes full, full. Send into. These are just straight action movies. Now, yeah, yep, um, all of our characters are indestructible um, but again to the credibility point.
Speaker 1:I guess that's super important to make sure you had credit like fast five is the most credible fast and feel like it's the one where, like you can throw that on and like rank it against action movies. You're like it's a good looking movie.
Speaker 1:I'm like, okay, justin Lin did his thing with those movies he did. I thought he did a very good job Bringing in the Rock as well, too. Also I don't know if people are going to want to hear this I think the Rock needed that Fast and Furious movie too, at that point where he was. That came out in 2012, if I'm not mistaken, 2011, 2011. So where was the rock? What was the rock doing in 2011 around that time?
Speaker 2:2011, the early 2010s, uh, I mean, I don't know nothing. I don't know if he's doing anything notable uh, now, now, the rock is still the rock, but I I just think that, well, this is I mean fast five is what launches him into being what he's known as now, which is, the most profitable movies are in the world, right, yep, that's what, fast and Furious is, and he's also the most Fast and Furious looking person. So I think that oh he's the perfect foil for Toretto in these movies.
Speaker 1:Because he's somebody you can also root for, Because you know he's not the definitive villain of this thing, but he's somebody that's an antagonistic force. So it's something that it's just like you said. It's a perfect counter for Vin Diesel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he, he shows up and it's just you're, it's like a different injection happens. And then I mean they, they just went full send with bringing. They brought everyone in, like everyone, everyone's in these, these yeah, it's like the team up.
Speaker 1:Nature started to feel like a team up, actually. So you know you, you get everybody in here as well.
Speaker 2:So 2000, all right, so 2000 we'll say, we'll say eight from 2008. So the rock does get smart. He does race. To which mountain? He does tooth fairy. He does the other guys, which he's really good in, right, but it's him and sam jackson are in it for 10 minutes. Yeah right, exactly, he does Tooth Fairy. He does the Other Guys which he's really good in, but him and Sam Jackson are in it for 10 minutes. He does Faster and then he does Fast Five.
Speaker 1:So at that point in his career, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I mean, all these movies are getting made just because he's in them exactly so.
Speaker 1:I think this was the best thing he ever could have done for his career. Like, let me get into a franchise. But this movie also needs to be something that's watchable. It can't just be a stupid action. This needs to feel. I need to get a feel out of something out of this.
Speaker 2:It turns him into the movie star Right.
Speaker 1:The modern age of the Rock doesn't come without Fast and Furious. Much to Vin Diesel's chagrin. Not on Fast X, though. Listen, at some point you gotta bite your tongue sometimes and be like I I need you, vin diesel.
Speaker 2:What's going on in fast sex vin diesel was by himself the whole movie.
Speaker 1:He was he was.
Speaker 2:But then they already did that in fast eight or nine, I don't know man yeah, and then, like I said, like it it starts to become, and then they do. They do what john wick did, but for the worse. They're like how do we one-up ourselves in all these movies? And there's a submarine, then there's a bomb rolling down the hill in Rome, then there's whatever Jason Momoa's doing in Fat Sex, and now we're getting another one and he's back. It's come full circle. The Rock's back, einhard. Of Fun, you sumbitch.
Speaker 1:There's never been better cinema than that. In my opinion, they peaked with that.
Speaker 2:The most obvious. Is there a more obvious post-credit cameo than in anything ever other than hobbs at the end of fast sex?
Speaker 1:that was, that was insane. But like, also, a little piece of you is still like there's no way, right, like like that's where, like real world, you was there and you're like no, like surely he hates him, right, like surely there's like actual hatred here, so like he wouldn't, he wouldn't do this and then they did it.
Speaker 2:Hatred so strong that he got his own spin-off. Yep, crazy. All right, what's directed by david leach?
Speaker 1:david leach what's your, what's your last one? So my last one is it's a. It's a studio themselves. Okay, um, that I think the studio saved indie filmmaking. Oh, and that's that's a 24, a 24. Absolutely, it's to the point where you go on YouTube now and people are like get the eight 24 look. And I was like that's not what that means, that's not even close to what that means. But it's almost like the revolution of A24 not only saved, you know, indie movies, it kind of saved Hollywood from itself. So my point being is you know, again, the king, and it's the tide that we keep going to, is the MCU. So the MCU is doing its thing and A24 has been around since 2009 or 2011,. Something like that.
Speaker 1:824 has been, and obviously it's 824 started to get big in the mid-2010s, like once you hit like 2014, 2015, 20,. That's when 824 started to become like a household, like, oh, that's an A24 movie, just like how you would say like this, this is like you know this, this is like you know. This is like a warner brothers movie. This is a. This is an 824 movie. So 824. What it did is it's quality control, and it's not only is it quality control. The most important thing is like 824 is like we're gonna pick up the movie but we don't have any say in what your movie is. Go make, go make your movie, just just go make your movie.
Speaker 1:We don't care about anything that you're gonna do, as long as you don't harm anybody or do anything. If like, go make your movie, just just go make your movie. We don't care about anything that you're gonna do, as long as you don't harm anybody or do anything. If, like, go make your movie and it's one of the most inspirational pieces and it's my point that I keep saying is like I feel like I grew up with a24, like so the older I got, it's like this, this, the studio that's there, is so predicated on like hey, like here's your project, here's this thing, here's this indie-esque movie, like they feel so real and they feel so personal and it's like you know, it's every now. It's the point of like.
Speaker 1:If you're like a small-time filmmaker, like before you probably would have been like I need my movie to get made by warner brothers. Now it's like I need my movie to get made by a24. So it just just adds like a, it adds a realm of like I can make this an actual possibility of the thing that I want to do. And you know, just look at the movies that they've produced. It's just, it's insane. And then you get up to. You get up to now, like the last two years, three years, like one of their movies. Has you know how many movies of theirs has been nominated for Best Picture? They won a Best Picture out of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the point. It all culminates with Everything, everywhere, all At Once. Everything you're saying, that's the culmination of it, which I think is a really neat bow on the journey. They started here, giving know, doing these little like doing, giving a place, giving a space for independent work, and then, little by little, year by year, ascent, ascent, ascent, and then it culminates with everything, everything, everywhere, all at once.
Speaker 1:And now, now, like you've arrived as a studio, I mean, for you I'm going to remix that the one that for them, that was the big. It was Moonlight. Moonlight was the biggest win that they'd had, because at that point in 2016, that's when people were starting to learn truthfully what A24 was, this movie? And then look at 2016 as a whole. Think about Captain America Civil War comes out in 2016. I think 2016 was a big comic book year as well, too. Batman vs Superman comes out in 2016,.
Speaker 1:So, like these big titans are fighting in the sky, right, yeah, like there's just this one man that's there with, like it's like that. Like it's the meme of like the huge titan in the sky and the man with the sword. Like 824 was the man with the sword. Of like I don't need to win the war, or I don't need to win this battle, like I can, I just need to play the long game a bit. And also it's the long game, it's mind your business. Like we don't have anything to do with anything like that. Like our sole purpose is just making good films. Like that's all we. We're not making a product, we're making art. Like art is our number one top priority and for me, in my opinion, it culminated in 2016.
Speaker 1:I mean, and then you put it up against something like La La Land as well, too, and, like you know, the infamous, you know, moonlight, you guys won Like, what a night. Like, I mean, a movie that cost what who? This was his second feature that he had ever like, that he had made at that point as well, too, as a second official feature, and you know, now he's a Best Picture winner and somebody that you know. Now Disney, you know, gets to do line and, like you look at the Mufasa movie and you physically look at it. Remember, when we watched the trailer, I was like there's a, there might be a little something in this. There was like a there was a close on Mufasa where he was like turning and I was like wait, wait, wait, a second.
Speaker 2:I think the line to act like that.
Speaker 1:Wait a second. But then you get now and it's like you get movies like civil war, like in, you know, the budget starts to raise a little bit but there's never, it's ever going to portray itself. I mean, yeah, I agree, Some of these movies are just absolutely incredible. I mean past lives dominated for an Oscar, Greta Gerwig wins, for Lady Bird, Like some of these movies. Like you put them up against these huge studio movies, like they're oftentimes better than these huge studio movies.
Speaker 1:So you know, and again you look at movies as a whole and like again, I think the number one thing that a24 did it's the art versus, it's the art versus the product. There's no product here. This it's just art. And it's like in a world that's so product focused, and like we need the next thing. It's funny that we counter what we just said like we need the next thing to connect that doesn't exist, like this is just a studio. That's just like you know. And now getting in the next year, we're getting Spike Lee. Now these big directors are like, make sure I get that A24 banner on top of there too. Spike Lee with Denzel is making a movie for A24.
Speaker 2:That's incredible, just to see where they started and see where they are. Now the Rock is doing an A24 movie, the Rock's doing an A24 movie.
Speaker 1:The filmography is just absurd. These movies, when you look at them now versus if you think about it from like 10 years ago, it's like, oh, that movie has the h4 banner, it has to be good. Like that's how people started to think yep, and that's that's I mean.
Speaker 2:I mean 99 of the time. It's true. That's the trajectory that you want for, like you know, a studio like you want. Eventually, you know you don't want to have to seek out all these high profile directors and movie stars. They're going to seek you out and that's what we're seeing now with A24, which I think is really really cool. Favorite A24 movie Ever.
Speaker 1:Sure man, I'll give you a second to look at the list.
Speaker 2:No, I'm just trying to. I mean I'm just trying not to do like the recency bias thing. Man, I really like the Ironclaw Ironclaw was, I mean, that's in my bag, like I'm a pro wrestling guy, like I knew the story of the Von Erich family, like, and that movie like I don't think you know it's funny to say like I don't think another studio could have done that story.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's the thing it's. You know another studio does that, it's probably a lot's. You know another studio does that. It's probably a lot more. You know a lot more overdramatic, exactly to the point where it doesn't need like like iron claw is haunting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly it's got this, like it's got this aura behind it, or it's just like it's nothing ever when, when mikey dies in that movie, that's where I was like, oh, so this is what we're doing and this is what we're doing, yeah, okay, um, I'm gonna give you I mean, I I'm not gonna it's moonlight, because that's the movie that made me want to make movies, because at first I knew I was gonna write, but I didn't know I wanted to actually physically make movies and then moonlight was the one that switched that for me. Um, I'm gonna give you a most underrated one, because I feel like that's a better approach for me, and that's um, joaquin Phoenix, and come on, come on, I think that movie is phenomenal. It is, it's just it's it's comforting, it's just, it's very simple, it's just very it's not somber, it's just. It's just this nice little movie that doesn't like there's no, like there's no sky beam, like sometimes great movies there's no sky beam, like it's just this. It's just a small movie about. You know, an uncle and you know that you know gets a chance to get a new look on life after he gets to take care of his nephew and kind of their, their trials and tribulations as a family. It's just, it's very simple.
Speaker 1:And that's 824 as a whole. It's just a very um. You know, obviously in the early days they were dipping a lot into horror. And again, you know if I can go further with the poor, 824 also kind of helped horror a lot, you know, be credible, because it was to the point where by the time Hereditary had came out, like people were screaming why was Toni Collette not nominated for for Best Actress? Like that's kind of crazy that she wasn't. So horror was at a point where it was like oh God, another stupid or like another, here's another conjuring, or you know what.
Speaker 1:I mean, but now it's like it's not just horror. It's like these weird, disgusting, you know bone chilling, like skin crawling horror movies. But they're not just horror movies. They're like they make you actually think about things and like, if I really want to think about it, like Ex Machina, I can. I can repackage as a horror movie if I wanted to. So this studio shout out A24. The two-time Oscar winner of Best Picture, studio A24.
Speaker 2:And likely more in the future, and likely more yep Definitely Saddest A24 movie.
Speaker 1:Um.
Speaker 2:They got some sad ones. Yeah, they do have some sad ones.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll do an a24 episode one day, one day yeah, yeah, that'd be good.
Speaker 2:It's good studio. I mean again, it's hard not to say I mean iron claws, just very sad horrifying, very sad.
Speaker 1:Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say after sun with paul mescal. That movie had me just distraught for days like I didn't like. To the point I didn't even want to get out of my bed for days after I watched that movie. That movie just had me destroyed. After I watched that movie, um chatted a24 past lives is great too. I just I'm looking at like the full list and like I'm just looking at, I'm like these movies are incredible, like this is actually nuts, that this all comes from the same studio.
Speaker 1:I mean uncut, gems, uncut gems is incredible as well, too. Um, I'm really underrated. One for the last couple of years was causeway. I quite enjoyed.
Speaker 2:And that was.
Speaker 1:Jennifer Lawrence coming back to because, she took a child and she came back and I thought she was incredible. Her and Brian Tyree Henry had great chemistry as well. Your boy Bo Burnham with 8th grade and that's another thing the studio does very well is giving these chances and these, not these chances, but like these here to like you know what I mean. Like here you go to these directors and these first time directors as well too. I think that's awesome agreed that was fun.
Speaker 2:That was fun it was a good time. And there's so many other things that I could talk about, so maybe we'll do a part two to this.
Speaker 1:Right Like X-Men, first Class is a good one, that comes to mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, house of the Dragon, I had on here. Thor Ragnarok. Obviously there's we could dive into, so maybe we'll table this and do a part two. That'd be fun. That's it, we're done. We're done for the week. That was a good chat, good chat. I always like these episodes. So, that being said, you can follow us on Twitter at Project INF underscore pod. You can follow us on Facebook. You can follow us on Instagram At the Project Infinite pod Next week. Who Infinite Pod Next week. Who knows? Who knows who's to say? Who's to say?
Speaker 1:We are.
Speaker 2:Maybe, I don't know. It's probably a little early for a Deadpool episode. Sure, we can wait a little bit for that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, we'll have some fun next week. Yeah, Maybe we won't. Maybe we won't. Maybe we'll talk about the whale next week. That'll be fun. No, it wouldn't. It'd be great to talk about Brandon Frazier, but to talk about the movie wouldn't be fun.
Speaker 2:No, that wouldn't be fun, it'd be sad, it'd be real sad. Yeah, so we'll figure it out. Until then, from me, from the Careful man. Man, I don't even know where to go with this one. We did so many things this week.
Speaker 1:From the Ben Mendelsohn of the podcast. I like it Right. I like it Right. I just watched Place Beyond the Pines a couple of days ago too. Love that guy, love Ben Mendelsohn man. One million scrolls, one million scrolls, were you up in your space station. We were down here as your errand boys. You're not talking to the cops, are you mate?
Speaker 2:Love Ben Mendelsohn. Love Ben Mendelsohn. Friend of the show. Yeah, best friend of the show. Well, we're going to go because we got a House of the Dragon to watch.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes and most importantly, happy birthday, rob. Oh, thank you. Happy birthday. Here's to a thousand more birthdays, because you are immortal at this point.
Speaker 2:That'd be nice, but thank you, thank you. Happy birthday, kiddo. We're, yeah, man, we're almost almost what? Three years into this thing? Yeah, it's been a while, it's crazy. Well, we will see you next week for yet another episode. I almost got my Dragon Ball Z voice. Next time, next time On the Project Infinite podcast. Previously All right guys, we'll see you next week. Goodbye.
