The Project Infinite Podcast
A Podcast Spanning The Ever Expanding Infinite Multiverse of Fandom. From movies, to TV, to comics, to the world of gaming, we have you covered at every corner with thoughts, opinions, commentary and a little bit of comedy too.
The Project Infinite Podcast
133 - Villains Turned Heroes: Why The Villain to Hero Trope is One of Media's Most Effective Arcs
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What if your favorite villain decided to trade in their evil for a shot at heroism? On this episode of the Project Infinite Podcast, we share our thoughts on some of the most memorable villain-to-hero transformations across movies, TV shows, and video games. From Jaime Lannister to Darth Vader, we make the argument that villain to hero arcs, when done correctly, are some of the most compelling arcs in a writing toolkit. We spend some time up top talking about the Minecraft movie's potential, Signourney Weaver joining the Star Wars universe, and a slew of DC news including middling Joker 2 reviews, The Batman II's tone and surprise casting for the Lanterns show. Join us for this engaging and speculative conversation on the ever-expanding multiverse of fandom!
0:00 Intro
01:29 Minecraft Movie Trailer
04:32 Signourney Weaver Joins The Mandalorian & Grogu
06:57 Ocean’s 14 Is Happening!
11:42 Joker Reviews, The Batman & Lanterns Casting
26:47 George RR Martin Blasts House of the Dragon in Blog Post
32:50 Our Favorite Villain to Hero Arcs in Media (TV, Movies, Comics & Games)
01:33:35 Darth Vader Gets His Own Section
02:00:11 Signing Off
Topic for Next Week: TV Retrospective: WandaVision
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It's the.
Speaker 2:Infinite Podcast. Go tell your friends, it's the Infinite Podcast.
Speaker 1:My God, it never ends. It's the Infinite Podcast with Robin Korn for Q.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Project Infinite Podcast, a podcast covering the infinite and ever-expanding multiverse of fandom, from movies, comics, tv shows, video games. We got you covered A little bit of everything today. I'm Rob, I'm here, as always, with Court, court. We're doing a fun topic again today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we love the topics. Two for two on the weeks and topics, I love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too. So obviously Agatha all along. I keep thinking back to like the covenant chaos thing, but it's agatha all along is coming out, uh, two weeks from now. Um, so we thought, obviously next week I'm jumping on next week's topic we're going to talk about wandavision, because we never properly talked about it, oh, no ever on this podcast, because we started this after wandavision was already we were in contract negotiations for this podcast.
Speaker 1:We didn't know what was up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so next week we're going to talk about WandaVision, but this week, in the spirit of Agatha all along, we're going to be talking about our favorite villain-to-hero turns across all types of media Video games, movies, tv shows. Just a fun topic that we're just going to volley back and forth on some of our favorites. Um, we got some good ones, some good ones cooked up, so look forward to that. Uh. But first we do have some news, starting with I can't believe I'm doing this minecraft. So we got a trailer for the minecraft movie. No good, I don't like it, I don't like it, I, I. Again. We're going down this path, these video game adaptations of why are we adapting things into live action? Specifically, I mean Minecraft more than any game. There's no story, it's literally just freedom incarnate. It's whatever the user wants it to be. I don't see a point in storyboarding a Minecraft movie.
Speaker 1:So I'm always on the fence about that point, because I do see where you're coming from of like this ip does not have plot. However, you know fallout has plot, but I feel like fallout's very free-ranged. You know what I mean. So you need a special type of writer. I think the issue here is tone.
Speaker 1:That's my problem with this, this is this just seems like they don't know what type of movie they were going in to make. And I don't know what jason momoa is doing here. I don't know what he's doing here me either.
Speaker 2:It's like they're trying to do, it's like they're trying to do with jason momoa, and that's what what jumanji tried to do with the rock. Sure, where they're having him play against, type a little bit, where the rock is. Obviously in jumanji. He's built like a, he's built like the rock, but he's inhabited by the body of, like this nerdy, scared teenager. So that's how he's acting and it feels like they're going for something similar here. Um, and it just, I don't know, it just doesn't land. And then jack black is playing steve from minecraft. Um, who's like, I guess, of all the Minecraft characters, he is the character. He's Steve, he's Steve Minecraft, but I just this movie looks like it's all over the place and it just looks like it's destined for oblivion essentially.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it still might perform a little bit because obviously it's going to be wide release. It's Minecraft yeah, kids love Minecraft, Kids do love Minecraft. I do see potential in this of being a fun, dumb little movie that comes out and no harm, no foul. I just have a fear there's going to be a lot of harm.
Speaker 2:And I mean to that point. There's always a chance that we're aged, like we're aged out of this and like we're just not the target, Like we're not the demo for this.
Speaker 1:I just mean as a movie, if you want to, if you want to get technical, it doesn't look great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean even even for like a kid's movie. It doesn't look great, you know, and that's not really indicative of like a children's movie tone. Um, so I don't, I don't know, like it just feels like. It feels like they're making this movie and they're making it like just not knowing who it's for, and that's always like my refrain on the show is like who is this for, right? Um, and I don't know, I don't know who this is for, um, so I don't know. I'm, I'm not, I'm not overly optimistic, uh, speaking of things that I'm cautiously, but also not overly optimistic for the mandalorian and grogu. So sigourney weaver has joined, joined the cast. Who do you think she's playing? Who knows john star?
Speaker 2:wars um, yeah, I mean it could be. Literally. It's going to be somebody that was written for Sigourney Weaver, presumably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's very encoded of what they did with her for the Defenders. You sign all-time great actor Sigourney Weaver. You're just like here's this role that has nothing to do with anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean funny enough, the last really not last thing she was in, but like one of the things that she's been in recently that didn't do that was avatar. Right, like it feels like she's actually playing a character instead of just playing sigourney weaver.
Speaker 2:Right, playing two characters in avatar actually um, but yeah, I, I can't imagine she's gonna be any. I mean, she'll be someone of consequence, but I don't think it'll be like we're not gonna be able to predict it. She's gonna be someone that, like you said, like your defender's point, like she's gonna be someone that was written sigourney weaver. You know, this role is.
Speaker 1:We got you on right now it almost feels like we casted you and now we're giving you the role right right, it's like and hollywood does that it's just like they'll have to create the character and they'll think of somebody in their mind and then, like they'll know the actor and they'll try to write around the actor. Usually when sigourney weaver gets cast nowadays, I like this is not barring avatar, because that was she already had been in that franchise before, like something like that seems very much of uh, you know, we know what this is, we know, we know who this is for. This is for you, sigourney. Like we're gonna write this for you in the way that you're encoded. It's funny that we talk about that and like obviously we're gonna talk about terminator jumping the gun a little bit later.
Speaker 1:But sure, how, in that era, like how important sigourney weaver was to movies, like yeah, she's one of the all-time great. Yeah, because I was thinking about, like her and linda hamilton and terminator, like how these are two women that like revolutionized the genres, that they were the sci-fi genre they were in, like they were, they are two and we I think we talked about it as well we had an episode where we talked about some of our favorite favorite woman characters and and movies and tv and we immediately, like linda hamilton and sigourney weaver are always at the top of that list yeah, I mean, you talk about alien, you talk about ghostbusters, like she's.
Speaker 2:You know she's a staple of that kind of genre. Right, you know she's still cooking to this day, which is really really great, right, speaking of people that are still doing things, so Ocean's 14 is officially happening. This news hit, I think, today, um, or yesterday, I can't remember, but uh, so far, brad Pitt and George Clooney are both going to return and the director will be Edward Berger, who you may know as the director of all quiet on the Western front, which got a lot of uh awards buzz when it came out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want a decent amount at the Oscars too.
Speaker 2:And uh, I I mean the Oceans movies have always been stellar. They're some of the best heist films and I mean I guess this was only a matter of time.
Speaker 1:I suppose I mean in an era of returning to past things and I see it too. I know they just did that movie Wolves. I have a feeling that on that set they were like we couldn't do it again, right? I genuinely think that's exactly how the conversation went. They were like we couldn't do it again, right? I genuinely think that's exactly how the conversation went. They were like we couldn't the two, we couldn't do this, right. Like the two of us couldn't do this, and they were like wait a minute maybe we can do this again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I mean we've talked. We talked about oceans.
Speaker 2:That's Entente, and I mean the Oceans franchise is, I mean, just littered with movie stars. So I'd be curious to see if anyone else comes back.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what I was about to ask. I want two actors that you want on this new heist team.
Speaker 2:Like new or returning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can do at all time. But I mean, oh, I think let's do this. I'm obviously not established, but I mean mean one like classic actor, like somebody that's been in hollywood for years, and then somebody from that, this new guard that we've been getting well, I mean, I would want to see matt damon come back that would be fun okay um, and then I mean I think glenn powell is tailor-made for this for an oceans movie like he just has.
Speaker 2:That you know he has it like you. Like that's what these oceans casts always had, like every single one of them had, like it. When you're talking about clooney damon, katherine zeta jones, uh, bernie mack, don cheadle don cheadle, julia roberts, like all these oceans actors always had like it. So I feel like I feel like you know glenn powell fits yeah, it's that bill, especially after hitman, like this, that was kind of his audition to to be in this oceans. So I feel like Glenn Powell fits that bill, especially after Hitman.
Speaker 1:That was kind of his audition to be in this Ocean's Boobies, if he so choose. But Glenn Powell is a very, very busy individual he's working with.
Speaker 2:Edgar Wright he sure is.
Speaker 1:Obviously, hitman just came out, just got a lot of buzz for him. He's probably going to be the main character with Miles Teller for Top Gun 3. So he's got work for his work. Um, you have to. So an actor that's already been a like that's been around for a while, I mean, I feel like it would just be. It would be too, it would be too insane not to get paul run into there. I feel like that would be a fun, a fun addition to there too. Um, and then austin butler would work in there too. It's the same 100 percent.
Speaker 1:I feel like he's the one that talks to the lady, like to the, to the bartender.
Speaker 2:Yeah, distract everybody like that's his, that's his type, like I feel like that would be fun yeah, I agree that's a great pick and, honestly, someone that that hasn't been in one that always felt like he always should have been le Leo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wonder if I don't even know how to say this without sounding disrespectful, but I feel like for Leo, it was beneath him to do an Oceans movie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even though Brad Pitt was there and George Clooney and George Clooney, but I just feel like that type of genre just suits him. Sure, I mean, gosling is another one that I feel like would yeah, yeah, he would be.
Speaker 1:If, the if, if he was younger, I feel like it would have worked, but I yeah, I think he's. He's at that point where he's like I need to be top build and whatever I either equal top builder or the top build and whatever I do, he's he is. He is the. Even the glenn powell's point. He is the. I am a movie star now maybe, but he is the movie star.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I agree with that, zendaya would be fun in there too. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Florence Pugh probably would be phenomenal in an Ocean's movie.
Speaker 2:Margot Robbie too, Margot. Robbie yep, would be great, but yeah, I think that's fun.
Speaker 1:Anya.
Speaker 2:Taylor-Joy probably would be, oh yeah, incredible in an oceans movie. Yeah, yep, 100. Yeah, that's true. Um, yeah, I mean, I think it's cool, like I think you know, take a, take a crack at one of these you know properties.
Speaker 1:You're gonna bring the actors back, maybe a sell for the movie is like they try to get their crew back, like the og crew, and then this young crew comes along. That's just so efficient and so fun. Yeah, you get your, your Austin Butler's, your Florence Pugh's, your Zendaya's around.
Speaker 2:Like time has passed you by Right, like you guys, future's. Now, old man, um, get some Paul.
Speaker 1:Rudd's still on the young team Um we had some DC news.
Speaker 2:So, first and foremost, uh, I didn't have this in there, but I guess we could pull it together. But uh, joker is getting some early reviews and they're not great yeah see, I love I think this started two years ago.
Speaker 1:Venice film festival is going on right now. It's that time of year I love this, the best time of year, um, the fall season, into the winter, right into the oscar season. Um, this is where you're gonna get all your film festivals going on, all your all. I love this. It's the best time of year the fall season, into the winter, right into the Oscar season. This is where you're going to get all your film festivals going on, all your awards season chatter. So you know, obviously, joker 1 performed billion-dollar well and, you know, oscar-worthy well, which is great, won two Oscars right Score and Best Actor. So you know, you're going into a second one with the same team. Like you gotta feel confident. You do have you, you must have to and you do have to. So obviously you go to venice film festival.
Speaker 1:11 minute standing ovation. Now here's the thing I. There was another movie that I know got very, very good reviews and it got a six minute standing ovation. So this is my thing. The longer the standing ovation, the worse the movie it thing. The longer the standing ovation, the worse the movie. It's a great. You know it was last year was the big one where people were trying to decipher the amount of the standing ovation and how good the movie was going to be. You can't go to seven minutes, but if you're under five minutes, but if you're over 11 minutes, something's wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is interesting, right, I think it's. I mean, who knows, at the end of the day, who knows if this movie is going to be as as middling as as the reviews are saying? But at the same time, like in an. You know, we've kind of talked about this before, like in an era where now, like back then, right back then 2019, when joker came out, like it was kind of this kind of like shock the system, you know, kind of comic book property.
Speaker 1:But now like and again, that was also in the era where the MCU just finished, for lack of a better term Like that was the not the end of the MCU, but that was like they did it.
Speaker 2:Like comic book movies were comic booky, and then this comic book movie at the end of the year was just so not comic booky, yeah, so and then you got, you know, and then the batman came out, which was obviously super grounded, um, and then just a lot of other things that just have grounded the genre and I just I don't know if this movie is suffering from that because, like you know, if this is just going to be joker again, I just don't think people are going to take to it and then also the second time around.
Speaker 1:You add the musical element on top of that too yeah, there could be.
Speaker 2:There could be a tonal conflict that obviously we haven't seen because the movie's not out yet, but, like I can imagine, you know it might be totally confusing. Sure that's. Musicals are hard to pull off, yeah, especially if the director doesn't believe his movies yeah, well, that's, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:It's like the where's the vision, like what's the what's the through line of this vision. So yeah, and obviously you, obviously you know there's stigma around you know around Lady Gaga as well, like some people don't think she can act. I disagree with that point. I also disagree with that. But I mean, we'll see, we'll see this is going to be an interesting one. I just hope. I hope that people are being tough on it now because you know it's the Venice Film Festival, but then coppola released megalopolis too and I'm like I don't know who to believe anymore. Right, apparently that movie is just like. There's no words to describe that movie, like it is just a, it's anarchy.
Speaker 2:I've heard right with ai, with ai generated quotes, right, which isn't great. Um, speaking of the batman, uh, we got a little bit little tiny bit of sliver of detail from matt reeves about what, the what, the tone of the batman. Uh, we got a little bit, little tiny bit of sliver of detail from matt reeves about what, the, what, the tone of the second movie is going to be and and where it could go in the future.
Speaker 1:Um, he said this is basically going to be in another mystery film, much like the first film was, and that he isn't overly interested in ever diving into the more fantastical elements of the batman universe, which I don't think people should be surprised by, but for some reason are I just think it's because the limbo of where he was gonna fit in, and then I I liked in the batman in the first one, how it was like obviously this is very, very, very, very grounded, but there was still. There was still a sliver of like hmm, maybe, maybe he could do like a clay face. So I mean that confirms like this is gonna be like no one's dark. Like this is there's no superpowers, nothing like that. Like this is this. These are just crime thrillers, which is just great. Some of the best batman stories are crime thrillers I mean it's probably sets up.
Speaker 2:You know, it either sets up probably one of two things it's either setting up court of owls or it's setting up h. Those are. I mean, I would say those are probably the two prevailing plots right now. If it's going to be another mystery film, yeah, and obviously the first one had the the hush kind of elements to it.
Speaker 1:Well, I told you when that, when that first movie came out, I said this might be one of the greatest setups to do. Hush and the second one. What you're going to do is you're going to make the hush report hush reporter. That's the point that that reporter that you know was killed. You know inadvert, not inadvertently, but you know that thomas wayne had killed or taken care of that's hush's father. So, yeah, and then a kid that grew up with bruce wayne, like that was friends with bruce when he was a kid like what a great way to start the second one.
Speaker 1:And then, if you can find a way to do this like ultimate conspiracy in Gotham, like you did in the first one, but make it Court of Owls, you really can start to play around with some things too. You add a Robin into there too, you add Dick Grayson into there. You still can get your quote-unquote comic book-y elements. But I think they're doing a good job of toeing the line. And I mean that film was just it's funny, because I still like this movie is like a nine out of 10. When it came out, that movie keeps aging like fine wine, even after each. It is insane how dangerously good that movie is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then, and then also, it's been confirmed, seemingly confirmed, that he won't be showing up in the penguin series. Yeah, but Bruce Wayne might.
Speaker 1:I'm still, I still am holding that thing where Bruce is going to show up himself. Yeah, interesting Getting that the same, I think in the same day as Agatha. It's like Agatha's on the 18th, penguin's on the 19th, yeah yeah, and some Green Lantern news.
Speaker 2:So Josh Brolin has been reportedly offered the role of Hal Jordan, and if Josh Brolin for some reason decides he doesn't want to do it, ewan McGregor and Matthew McConaughey are also on the shortlist, so obviously we're going for an older Hal.
Speaker 1:Jordan. Obviously, I'm so interested. I saw that and got giddy because I was very I wasn't shocked at all. I have a feeling I know what his sell is and I kind of know. I have a feeling I know what his cell is. I think a big piece of what he's going to want his DCU to look like, his legacy, is going to be a big, a big through line, and I can get it from the fact.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's my point that I always said about the DCEU that you should have made Ezra Miller Wally West instead of Barry Allen. Like I think that James Gunn's gonna do that with some of the characters. Like we might start with Wally West. Like we've how many times have we seen Barry Allen since 2014? Like we've seen a lot of him. Like, obviously, to his help to the Arrowverse didn't use Wally West overtly too many times. Like he was in a couple seasons of the Flash. That was it. Like maybe you start with Wally West and you do the thing where you know they they knew each other before and like what that's going to help too is really prop up Superman. Like make Superman like he came in late to this, but like everybody follows him when he gets there Cause of the symbol of hope he is. I think that's such an interesting point so I'm all in.
Speaker 1:I know some people and you know I talked about it before we hopped to people's brains of how Jordan is not from a comic center, like it's such a Ryan Reynolds sense, so like that's the only version of how Jordan they think exists. It's like this brass, like you know, fly boy. That's, like you know, somewhat charismatic, somewhat a jerk, which he is, he still is and even after what I'm about to say, he's still. He still is, but is. But if you go post green lantern rebirth, hal jordan, after he was the specter, that's where I think brolin is perfect for something like that, like this, like I've seen some stuff, like I've seen some stuff, I was dead and I was the specter while I was dead. Like I've seen things, like I've seen things you people couldn't believe shout out, blade runner. But like I, like this mentor figure type of role, especially for somebody like hal j, like don't run away from the fact that he was that, that, like you know he was your kind of, like you know your Iceman slash hangman from the Top Gun series, like he was, like that jerk that used to fly around, and then he got this green lantern ring. He learned responsibility and then he died. And then he you know he did, he committed some absolute atrocities and then he died. And then he came back to life, like put brolin in that role where he's like I'm going to teach you john stort, who's going to be the main character of the show, like I'm going to teach you how to not do what I did, but also I who.
Speaker 1:I think this lantern show is about to be absolutely insane, true detective inspired, like murder mystery, which you're gonna, if you, if you want to read what you're going to read is you're going to go through the Geoff Johns run, it's, I think they're going to do Blackest Night.
Speaker 1:That's what I think this whole, because they said there's like a conspiracy on Earth, like the conspiracy on Earth is, I think they find Necron, like they find. And then, next thing, you know, the Black Lantern rings are literally taking everything over. Like that would be insane if they just start with some, like there's just some murders around and like you know the space cops on Earth, or the space cops like oh, it's just like, can you the Guardians? Like can you handle this Like this is nothing big. Can you handle this? Like, oh, the universe is about to end if we don't take care of this? Like I feel like that long-term storytelling you inject it into the background of some of the movies, like the lantern show just blows up after that. I feel like that's so cool and that's why mcconaughey's on the short list. There's no way, that's, that's, they weren't gonna think about that yeah, yeah, I think it's.
Speaker 2:I think it's a. I think it's a super interesting idea and like how jordan's one of those characters that you know in live action obviously hasn't had a lot of play. So I feel like you can kind of just put him wherever you want on the timeline and people just buy him, like I don't, I mean, obviously he's a beloved character, but at the same time, like it's kind of like the Tony Stark thing with Iron man, like you can kind of play a little bit with what you want to do and, like I think about this too.
Speaker 1:Is he beloved or is the stigma of Hal Jordan beloved because of what happened in the movie with Ryan Reynolds, Green Lantern?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then with Ryan Reynolds' Green Lantern, yeah, and then obviously the animated stuff. Hal Jordan 2, when he's kicking around, is also kind of brash.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's cool and that's pre-Parallax, pre-him, and that's the thing about the best reveal of Parallax. Hal Jordan did those things Obviously he was possessed, but heordan did those things like obviously he was possessed, but like he still did those things on impulse.
Speaker 1:So yeah you know him destroying, like coast city getting destroyed and like him having to come back. Like that. Green lantern rebirth is one of my favorite comics ever. Like that was. I think that was the one of the first comics I read when I got back into reading comics. Like it's so, it's, it's just so uplifting for how to, because it's like him coming back, like that panel of him coming back, it's like that's what it should feel, like that's what a prime looking at a prime version of a character should look like.
Speaker 1:So I just like this kind of cross between you know, and I think james gunn said it, he said that for his movies there's not going to be like a streamline where like yeah, you know, we know from the mcu, like and you know, it's kind of why people like edgar wright left and like how our theory of like chloe xiao is like I want to do these things, they're like just relax, like pump the brakes a little bit, like they wanted that uniformity to an extent through things. So I think james gunn probably wants the opposite. He's probably like I'm gonna get directors who are known for these things and let them just operate like I will. I will weave this the way I need to weave it and then, whatever the team-up movies are, we'll address when it gets there. But yep, I want you guys to play around with your characters however you deem fit, how tonally you deem fit, and then I will worry about getting them back to where they need to yep yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:Um, who do you want to play Jon Stewart? Because that's probably going to be super duper important for this.
Speaker 2:It depends, I guess, what you want him to, If you want him to be younger or if you want him to be a little bit older. I guess that would be the first question, I think.
Speaker 1:I want him to be younger If they're going to do this whole, because in the comics Jon and Hal aren't too much off in age, but for this it seems like they want the age gap on purpose. They want this definitive.
Speaker 2:If you want to do someone that's relatively young, not like super young.
Speaker 1:No, I know.
Speaker 2:But like 30s, like late 20s, early 30s, I mean I would give John Boyega a call.
Speaker 1:I think he would do it too. I think he would do it and I think the sell is, especially after you know Star Wars Yep, star Wars and his phenomenal performances and then Clone Tyrone Like I feel like he'd be ready to step back into like a fandom role, but like also, the sell for him is like we're going to do some cinema in here too, like this, like the same thing that you did before, like you're gonna get to actually do the acting in this yep, and we always talk about it the progression of john voyeg is acting from episode seven to episode nine. It is disgusting that they didn't just make him the main, one of the main characters of that thing. Yeah, um, I love that john voyeg a pick. I feel like that he would be, and especially with brolin, I feel like he would be good. Um, I think desmond idris would be incredible for something like that, and my brain is thinking in a true detective sense of the fact of it too. I feel like Desmond Idris would be. He'd be like this little overtly cocky, but like he's smart on top of that too.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh, I feel like that will play a role with Brolin's like dude, I was you, like I was you. I was. I was running and gunning, I got this power, I got this ring and I was like I can do whatever the heck I want and it's not that simple. And again, I like this whole thing of just a small conspiracy. There's a couple dead bodies that are going around and the next thing, you know, the Black Lanterns are all coming back. I feel like that would be great. It would be probably a good first justice league movie if you want to do something different. Sure fits james gunn's mold and uh, what's it called? I know they're doing. They're doing swap thing, right, supposedly. Yeah, swap things important to the, to the um, to the blackest night story too. So I have a feeling that's what he's gonna do.
Speaker 2:I think he wants to do blackest night yeah, yeah, I think I think that makes a lot of sense to me. Um, yeah, I think I totally agree with that. That just is a good pick too for john stewart. But I just think, you know, I think you could easily pitch this to john boy again. Just be like, hey, you know, obviously the last thing didn't go your way, but now we want to give you like your thing, you know, and you're gonna let josh, like josh brolin's, gonna kind of be like your figurative and literal mentor, your thing, and you're going to let Josh Brolin be your figurative and literal mentor and Josh Brolin, especially after Dune.
Speaker 1:I read the Dune photo book that they did for Dune 2 and just him talking about the young talent. Josh Brolin seems like such a giving actor and I think that's what they probably want for this role and this is why I love what direction they're going for the dcu, and especially after james gunn's comments a few days ago like this is gonna be like tonally what this, what? Whatever the story needs, it's not gonna be. We need to fit something. It's like whatever your story needs, like whoever the director that like do what you need to do, as long as it's quality. Do what you need to do, yep 100 percent.
Speaker 2:Um, and the last bit of news I got, so george george rr martin has come out, uh, and then since deleted, um, his relatively scathing criticism of of some elements of season two of the house of the dragon and what he feels is going to happen in season three or four, um, he just had some issues with some changes that were made, some characters that were omitted.
Speaker 2:Hbo has defended Ryan Connell and company, basically saying, like we believe in the vision, like we respect George Martin's work, yada, yada, yada.
Speaker 2:George Martin was critical mostly of a couple things. One mostly revolving around the first episode of the season, the blood and cheese episode, you know, in which the major change from Fire and Blood, his story, is that in the book Blood and Cheese obviously gives Helena the choice of a child to have executed and then Blood and Cheese essentially make the decision for her, which is the change from the show where she offers them a necklace and then eventually relents on one of the children. And then the other is the omission of Aegon's second son, Maelor Targaryen, from the show entirely. And George Martin likened it to the butterfly effect, essentially like Maelor as a toddler, obviously at the events of Blood and Cheese, but then progresses to a more important character later on. And then he basically said Season 3 and 4 has potentially more toxic changes in store from the source material, but then, like I said, the blog post has since been deleted. So interesting, to say the least, it feels like he might be getting a little bit of like Season 8 Thrones PTSD potentially.
Speaker 1:I thought of you know what's funny? I actually thought about that too. I thought about that when we were talking about it before Of like he there's probably fear that comes with it, and like it's known that he didn't have Thrones Like this, 8 was Freestyling.
Speaker 2:I mean a lot of it didn't have thrones Like this. Eight was six, seven and eight mostly were freestyling Right.
Speaker 1:But like see how there's dichotomy to that, because six and seven are phenomenal, yeah, and then eight is eight, yeah. So it's funny. This doesn't have to do with anything, but I love when people are like it's the worst thing that I've ever seen in my life. And then I'm like season eight of Game of Thrones. Some creators would murder to have quality like that Most of them would.
Speaker 1:But I digress Anyway, on George RR's front. How I'm kind of fallen is it's tough when you make the thing and you have to give it away. It's like giving away a child.
Speaker 2:He said that in the past too. I think he's actually said that exact thing about like it's kind of like giving up a child, in a sense, like letting you know, letting someone else adapt your work Right.
Speaker 1:And it's you have to. There's a level of trust that you need to have and I mean, I know George watched Andor and he was just like, yeah, they finally get that. This is actually political Right. Anyway, I don't know how. This is a tough one because, like you know, you want to be on the creator side. But like, how old is George now?
Speaker 2:He's 82 or 81.
Speaker 1:See, I don't want to be that like ageist, but you know, part of this could be like don't do this thing, don't change anything, don't adapt anything to be different, like dude, if you're not the sole writer of this, like you made the decision, it's not up to you.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we want your input, like you are the man that made this possible, yeah, however, you're not directly on the show as one of the head writers. You're just not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean at the end of the day, like you know it's, it's great that obviously they gave him some some input. I know he was, you know he was you, you know, kind of in the writer's room with with the director, ryan condell, of the showrunner and that should be.
Speaker 1:Look at the respect that you're, that ryan's giving you, like a lot of people probably wouldn't do that of like be like, we're gonna do our own thing. We, like you, did your part.
Speaker 2:Like and at the end of the day too, like george byron is a, is a, he's a writer's writer.
Speaker 2:So like um and he's a, he's a fantasy writer on top of that, so like yeah, yep you know, I, I'm 90 sure there there are probably I mean, I know for sure there are many things in game of thrones that he wanted to probably have in there and probably a lot of things in house of the dragon that he wants to have in there. But the reality is like writing for tv and writing for teeth and writing for, you know, writing books are two different things. I mean, honestly, look, I'm not gonna begrudge him and I, because he's, he's 90 million times the writer I could ever hope to be but a lot of the, a lot of the Thrones episodes that were penned by by George RR Martin are among the kind of clunkiest. You know, if you, if you go through his, his, his writing credits on the show, his, his show, his, his, his episodes often feel very expositiony, and that's because he's a writer's writer who doesn't write for tv. So I just, I feel like there's an element of that too, where, like he just sits back and is like, well, why did they put this in? Why did they put this in? Well, you know, they, probably because they don't have plans to expand on on it, like you know, for example, agon's second son, or like they're probably never going to touch upon it, because I feel like this show is destined probably to just end after the dance ends, like after the civil war is over. I think that's pretty much when the show ends. So I mean that's and that's going to be the end of it. So you know, I'm of two minds about it. We talk all the time about how great it is having the creators on board um when you're developing an adaptation, but at the same time, like you also gotta, as the creator, also gotta understand that sometimes things are gonna happen that you might not necessarily be on board with um, and I think that's kind of where we're at. Yep, agreed, yeah.
Speaker 2:So speaking of that, let's, uh, like I said, in the spirit of Agatha all along, we are going to talk about some of our favorite villain to hero turns to be TBD on. If this is going to in fact happen to Agatha Harkness, I don't particularly foresee it, but it is a fun idea. I don't think she's going to ever walk the path of, like. You know well, obviously we're going to talk about Loki, so I don't think she's ever going to walk that path. But you know well, obviously we're going to talk about Loki, so I don't think she's ever going to walk that path. But you know, I think she will probably end this Hopefully Maybe not even hopefully, like maybe she will end the show with a more nuanced perspective on her powers.
Speaker 1:Or she won't, or she won't, or she won't, we don't know for sure.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we're just going to uh spitball and throw a couple of these back and forth and, and I'll let you start, yeah, and I mean, what a phenomenal idea. As well, too, I think this is really cool in the sense that, you know, let's think about this, about this kind of from a logical perspective, like writing's fun, it's so, it's so cool and like this idea that you can take this absolutely villainous, horrible person and like the best part about this in the episode idea is it's the humanity. Like, at the end of the day, we're all you know humans are humanoid, and especially when you're doing the storytelling, so the idea, and you know, let's just start with you know we'll start with something that's a little bit more. You know, simple, let's start with Yondu.
Speaker 1:Like Yondu was this, you know ravager, that this pirate, this cosmic pirate that was, you know didn't care about anybody, anybody or anything, only crime. And then you know, as subsequent pieces of guardians media would come out, like, you learn that like Yondu actually did care a little bit and that's the humanity piece. Like he was doing this horrible, terrible, egregious things, but he still was like a person at the end of the day and you know yondu's big on honor and respect and you know, once he got those things, we see how he was and like even beyond honor and respect, it's the right thing to do and we see how you get there in guardians too. And like how informed Peter was from Yondu. Like it's funny how much Peter did for Yondu. And it's like it's not like he's your dad like your father. He's like he wasn't, but he was your daddy, like he he was and just the entire MCU.
Speaker 1:If anybody's ever nervous about what James Gunn's going to do in the DCU, just go think about the things, think lines like that, throwaways like that. Like you know, it's part Michael Rooker's performance, but it's just, it's the writing on top of that, it's just the understanding of hey, it's, it's such fulfillment what you you're going to make a point about it, it's just that redemption. You know I can be better. I mean, I'll spoil it now. A train's on this list it's a very recent one, but a train's like a perfect example of this, of like the horrible, terrible things, like like a train says it. He's like the way that kid looked at me is better than any of the things that I've ever done for vought this whole time, because that was real, like that was I, I act. That kid looked at me like I was a, like I was a superhero. That line is not. It's intentional, like it's simple but it's intentional, like that's what you're supposed to be, but like. He actually looked at me like I was a superhero.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, yondu's a great one too, and I mean when you think about the fact that he gets excommunicated by the Ravagers, for, because you know, stallone's character says it it's so crazy that Stallone's in a Guardians movie.
Speaker 1:Two.
Speaker 2:Guardians movies, two Guardians movies, but he says it like we don't Ravagers don't deal in kids, so like even you know, even the Ravagers made Yondu out to be a villain, and then you obviously later find out that he didn't end up doing what he Hell. Yeah, he's cool, I'm Mary Poppins, y'all. And yeah, he establishes that fun little relationship with Groot and Rocket. Him and Rocket have a really great heart-to-heart when they're locked up by the rogue Ravagers. Yeah, that's a great Gondu's, a great first choice. I think I'm going to come out swinging and I'm just going to go right to Jamie Lannister.
Speaker 2:Jamie Lannister is a litmus test, for how scummy can I make this character and still have you impacted by his redemption arc when we meet Jamie Lannister in season 1 of Game of Thrones, he is this cocky. You know people always make the joke that he looks like the prince from Shrek. This cocky, clean cut, just scum. You just don't like him. He's just you hate his gut. You want to wring his little neck, and nothing that happens in the first couple seasons of Game of Thrones makes you like him anymore. He killed the bad king. He killed Aerys Targaryen. He stabbed him in the back, so he's getting shit for that he betrayed his oath as a member of the Kingsguard. He sleeps with his sister, incest.
Speaker 2:No good, not on. No good, we don't like that. He pushes Bran out the window in the pilot of Game of Thrones, the first episode Right the things we do for love Pushes Bran out the window. So he cripples Bran. What else does he do? He attacks Ned Stark on the strings of King's.
Speaker 1:Landing.
Speaker 2:And you know he's just. You could tell he's ready to kill Robert Baratheon, Just wants his guts dead, sprawled throughout the city. He's this cocky, arrogant, doesn't care about anyone other than his sister. But even in the early seasons of Game of Thrones there's this little bit there to him he cares about Tyrion first and foremost.
Speaker 1:Right, right, yep, that's such a good point. It's such a small. It's not a small thing, but it is a little bit of a subtle thing. What do you mean? Small? Come on man, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:He cares about Tyrion. So there's a tiny bit of a tether there, like a little bit right, a little bit of a tether's, confronted by ned in the throne room not confronted, but like they. That gets the king's landing. Jamie's in the throne room and ned's there and he's just like ah you, king slayer, you prick, I hate your guts. And jamie's like dude, I saved everyone by doing what I did. Like your, your father and brother were burned alive. Like I avenged not avenge them, but like. And ned's like is that, is that like? Is that what you tell yourself? Like that you did what you did for my, for my family. Like you, just you broke an oath. Like that's what you did, right. And jamie's like oh, fuck, like, so it's like the, it's the like. He wants to justify the slaying of the mad king so badly. But but everywhere he turns Kingslayer, oathbreaker, and then you know he's fighting this war against Robb Stark. He gets captured by Robb Stark and again he's back to being a little prick.
Speaker 2:He's just twisting a knife in Catelyn Stark. Whenever they talk, he's like ah, your husband got his head chopped off and your son is also going to be dead soon, like you suck, basically. And then eventually he strikes this deal with caitlin stark to to return to king's landing in exchange for sense and aria, which is also a lie, because aria is long gone from king's landing at this point, but of course caitlin doesn't know that. So he sent she sends jamie to be escorted to king's landing by brian of tarth, right, um. And then they are confronted by the Boltons, who are bannermen of House Stark.
Speaker 2:In the ruckus, jaime Lannister loses his hand Right, and then so begins the redemption of Jaime Lannister, because he has now been, he's lost his identity, which is this pristine swordsman. He's unmatched, he's peerless, and now he has lost his dominant hand and he can no longer fight. He's no longer the knight he was. Um. The boltons make him wear his severed hand around his neck as they bring him back to the dreadfort, um, and as, as he is housed by the boltons, um, he and brian share this scene together in the tub, where he just lets the guard down completely because he hears the word one too many times about breaking his oath Because Brienne is this knight.
Speaker 2:That's all about oath, and all about you got to honor your word and you broke that word when you stabbed Aerys Targaryen in the back and Jaime just goes. You have no, basically no idea that decision. Like my father had stormed King's landing and the old the bad, king's only orders were for me to bring my father's head to him. And then he turned to his pyromancer and said burn them all. Like he was going to level the city with wildfire and burn them all, burn them all. He kept saying over and over again. And what would you have done? Like you know oath, like oath keeper, like what would you have done in my position? And that's when you finally start to see it. And then he, he ends up rescuing brienne from a bear, um, and then, and it's kind of on after that, like he, he starts, he gets back to king's landing, he reunites with cersei things really aren't the same between them and you start to see this turn in him. Obviously he tries to strike a deal for Tyrion's life during Tyrion's trial and he was going to succeed in that. Except Tyrion obviously felt like, no matter what Jaime promised, it was always going to be Tywin's final say. So tyrian obviously demands the trial by combat, which kind of screws jamie's plans of rescuing tyrian and then, um, I mean, ultimately what this results in is he he forsakes cersei, um to go fight with john and up north, um, after he he sees Daenerys in the open field with with the dragons, and he's like we, none of this matters, none of this matters, like she's going to kill us all. But if I don't go North and help defend the final, help defend the kingdom, like the kingdom, not just King's landing, we all die anyway. And cersei labels him basically a traitor. Unfortunately, season eight, he backpedals, goes back to cersei. They die together. Um, I ultimately don't think that's what's going to happen in the books. Um, my long-standing theory on the books is we're going to go down this redemption path and he will ultimately do like a kingslayer redux and have to slay cersei out of the good of the realm. Except this time people will recognize him as a hero, right? But that's just me theory crafting, right. And then I mean the one.
Speaker 2:The one moment that sticks out with Jamie is is he's kind of being poked by a grand maester, kyburn basically saying you know, jamie Lannister, like how many men have you killed? Like 10, 20, countless. And Jaime goes countless has a nice ring to it. And then Qyburn goes and how many lives have you saved? And he's expecting, like, got him, got him, kingslayer, you prick, you don't care, you don't save lives, you end them. And Jaime goes 500,000. He goes, goes without even a beat. Jamie answers and he says 500, 000 because it's the population of king's landing. And you're like, oh, like he. He really just he did the right thing and he knows he did the right thing and he's been chastised his entire life for doing the right thing. And then he goes through this transformative experience and comes out the other end more noble.
Speaker 1:Right, it's compelling. Yep, it's great long-term writing. I love long-term writing. I love when long-term writing pays off as well too.
Speaker 1:I mean one of my favorite things to think about in terms of character work, because obviously this is also what we want to do. It's not that simple, yep, and that's the greatest characters you'll ever find will be that idea. It's not that simple. It's not that simple if Jaime's just this, you know, incest-driven, like perfect-looking, like son of the heir, like the heir of it doesn't work like that. It's not that simple. He's a person and people are complicated and that's the beauty of this episode is like showing the complications of these villains and how humanity oftentimes wins out. The next one that we can pull from is kind of the counter to the humanity pulls out, but it's also like the adaptation of seeing the good of people can do, and that's the T-800. And I mean this is a little bit more of like a meta thing for the T-800 and the idea from what you get to Terminator 1 to Terminator 2. But the trailer spoiled it Obviously in 91, the trailer spoiled this.
Speaker 1:But if you did not see this trailer and you go into Terminator 2 and you see the heel turn and it's not even a heel turn, it's one of the best reveals in movie history of get down. And you're like, wait a wait, a second. And it's it's the crafting of the, of the first act of the movie too, because they still present the t-800 as, like you know, as the bad guy. He's like he's mowing through town. He gets back to, like he's back in the past. He's just like you know he he seems menacing again. You're like, oh, shoot, like he's back. He's back, he's come to kill john again. And, like you know, this is it's gonna happen again. Like how's john, how's kid john gonna escape any of this? And he's just like get down. And you're like, wait a minute, no shot.
Speaker 1:Like he, he's a good guy this time. Like that we built a better term. Yeah, we built a better terminator. And I mean, obviously you have the t-1000 like I forget. I always forget his name. Uh, peacemaker's daddy is what we'll call him. Yeah, um, he's like he's so soft-spoken and he goes to people. He's like you haven't seen john. You haven't seen john connor, have you?
Speaker 2:you haven't seen him around like robert patrick, robert patrick, yeah, it's just like you know, you haven't seen, you haven't seen john connor anywhere.
Speaker 1:Right, like he's charismatic, he's like a, he's like a, like a guy, just what. Like, so it's a normal cop looking. And then he's like he gets, they get to the interaction. You're like all right, like it's on, like we'll see what happens. Maybe they both want john. And then he's like no, no, I'm you sent me here. Like I'm here to, I'm here to protect you. Like terminator 2 I watched it about maybe two, three weeks ago.
Speaker 1:That is one of the best action movies you will ever find on this planet and that will never, ever change. And a lot of it is character work. That's why, like, the action itself is I mean it's, it is just, it's it absurd good and it will stand up, it'll hold up. The visual effects will stand up and hold up, and that's crazy for a movie from 91, but it's Linda Hamilton's turn in that movie. But it's all how it's so informed by the T-800, too, it's all. It's all kind of reactionary towards him and it's like what I love about it is like, again, it's not that simple. It's not that simple. It's not that simple.
Speaker 1:If the t-800 comes back, he's just a good guy. It's not that simple. Like he doesn't know, john, will these? John, whatever orders he gives, like the t-800 will follow. Like also like linda hamilton's not immediately the perfect person either, she's not as great. Like she's. She's ready to kill miles dyson. Like she's ready to murder him in cold not in cold blood, like to save the human race, but who's who knows.
Speaker 1:Like the a big part of that movie is the predestination versus free will, like you know. And he begs for his life. He says, like I I won't, like I'll, like I promise, like I won't do, and she's I can't, there's, no, I can't take this risk. Like I can't risk you. Like I've seen it, like I've seen the future, you will incinerate this planet. Like I've seen it, it like man, what a phenomenal movie. But, like I said, that that reveal of the T 800 is just it is. It is second to none. Like it's such a, it's such a great way. And like I love how it's a movie separated too. So, like you are, you're going into the movie like, oh, all right, arnold's. Like no, he's actually the hero this time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it's and it's, and one of the best ways you know it's it's become the trope since. But Terminator 2 kind of kind of pigeon, like, if you're going to, if you're going to take your villain from your first movie and make him a hero, how do you instantly do that? Make a bigger villain, like a more and literally, in this case, like the T-1000 is a more advanced Terminator. So you know, if you want to make Arnold kind of fight from underneath, you have to create a character that is more powerful, faster than he is, which is brilliant, which is why you introduced the T-1000, make Arnold, make the T-800 the underdog.
Speaker 1:And it's kind of allegorical too, because it's like the humanity versus technology. Like humans obviously cannot hold up, like in a fistfight against the Terminator you'd be immediately murdered. But and I like how they kind of play that for Arnold too, like they they show art, like in the first like art, or like he cuts his arm open to show miles, like look like you did it, like you actually did the thing that you were trying to do, yeah, and like how the T 1000 always adapts back, like he can adapt back to looking human whenever he needs to Like I feel like that's like it shows the, you know, the humanity of the Terminator, which I guess is oxymoronic in a way. But you know I love the dichotomy between the two of them of like, how you know the T-800 is essentially reverting back to such like how human, how human of a machine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean like how human, how human of a machine. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a great one. Um, I think I'm gonna go to the, to the video game room now at this point. I'm gonna go to a little game called red dead redemption 2, um, and I'm gonna go with arthur morgan, um, obviously, I have with the caveat you know, red dead redemption 2 is a decision-driven narrative, um, in the sense that there is a low honor version of arthur and a low honor version of arthur and a high honor version of arthur. I have decided and I think the gaming community at large would agree, that the high honor version of arthur morgan is the quote-unquote canonical version, um, because it just makes sense. It just makes sense for the story.
Speaker 2:Um, that he would start this. Start red dead 2, as this out, he's part of an outlaw gang. He's Arthur is is essentially the the ace in the hole of the Vanillin gang. Right, whenever you need something done, arthur's the one that gets it done. And most notably man man. The writing on the game is so good man it is.
Speaker 1:That is some of the best. What Red Dead 2 does so well is. It presents itself as this like cool game, you know what I mean? Like the first. Like it presents itself as like like I want to be a cowboy. Like this is cool. Like I'm a gunslinger from the old west. And then you start to get into that story.
Speaker 2:You're like, oh, life is, life is something yeah, and I mean's and what I mean about the writing is pretty early on in the game you get sent on this innocuous mission where you have to basically collect debt from a character named Thomas Downes and you don't think anything of it. He's sick, obviously the man is sick, and it's presented in a way that you're supposed to view Arthur as this heartless person and you're not supposed to feel particularly good about it. You beat up this sick man to collect the debt that Devin's like. In the grand scope of things it's not a lot of money and then you go on this wild journey that is Red Dead Redemption 2. I mean, I'm not going to go beat for beat what happens, but essentially Arthur gets tuberculosis.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you're like, as the player, you're like how?
Speaker 1:did that happen?
Speaker 2:And then you get thrown all the way back to that innocuous debt-collecting mission. And then, lo and behold, sick Thomas Downs had TB and he coughs blood on Arthur, and you know, at a random, you know, and he coughs blood on Arthur and you know, at a random, you know nonsense moment of the game and then you're like wait a second.
Speaker 1:It's the. Why it's so incredible is, especially in a game that's like that your Grand Theft Auto, your Red Dead Redemption, your super, super open world it immediately puts a clock, like there's a clock that immediately goes onto it and you're like he has this amount of time to become a human being. Like this is this is all he's got left. I think that's such a it's such an interesting way to kind of, you know, unravel the intricacies that are arthur morgan. Again, this is going to be the whole. It's the theme of this. It's the theme. It's like it's not that simple. Like it's not that simple that he's just this like, like I said, this old west gunslinger that like will kill for money and like will rob anybody it does. It's not that simple. Like, and again, you get introduced to the you know the his wife.
Speaker 1:Like you get introduced to like you know the family that he could have had and you know it starts to break down to the point of like, while arthur's a huge like, he's a person like he was, a person that just like what's the line he gives? Like I'm in a bad way, like I would like I've seen that, like I've seen some stuff, man, and then he ultimately realizing, reconciling with, with his, his mortality, he, he, he.
Speaker 2:He decides to kind of try to make amends through john marston, in the sense that like he sees john as this young guy who got swept in this and now john's in prison, he's been apparently abandoned by dutch. So arthur goes, takes it upon himself to retch to john. He realizes, realizes eventually how far gone dutch becomes. Uh, micah gets in dutch's head about the, the traitor. Um, people die and arthur essentially says like hey, man, man, I ain't got time in this world, but I can set John up for the future it's always funny in the three points we made, there's always a bigger fish until somebody builds a bigger bomb.
Speaker 1:For whatever bad that there is, there's evil, there's actual evil that's afoot in this situation. It it's Dutch. Like Dutch is like Dutch. And Micah, yeah, yeah, they truthfully do not care about anybody. Like they will do whatever they need to get ahead, even if that's at the sacrifice of who you thought was your brother, arthur. No, it's not. Like I will do anything I need to do, I I will kill when I need to. Like Arthur's is there's there's a hint of morality, and Arthur's doings Like there's no morality. For, for you know, there's personal gain. Like same thing for Cersei against Jamie. Like even to the end, cersei would like a power is power. Like I will do what I, I will do what I must like. And then again, for for the T 800, like there's bigger, badder version of me out there, and like I will do you know what I need, but I will also learn. Like you know, it's the vision line for for the T 800. Like humans are odd, but like there's there's grace in their failings.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, and it culminates in for Arthur, not culminates, but one of the final missions you do is you go back to the downs house, find out. And Arthur finds out Thomas downs down's past, um, many, many moons ago. And his wife is just like what? Like, what are you here to? Like, collect another debt, like, and arthur's like no, ma'am, like I'm here to give you this, give you this money, um, and she's like why are you doing this, you know, and he just goes. And he just goes because you know, I felt like I, I need, I should, and then he just goes I'm sorry, ma'am. And then, like that line, it's just like it's three words, but it, it, it hits so hard, it's like cause you literally return, you return to the literal seat of the crime, basically, and Arthur just says I'm sorry, ma'am.
Speaker 2:And then you all, obviously Arthur's journey, obviously the high honor version of events. You're confronted by Micah as you're trying to escape with John with the money. Arthur leaves John, the money. Micah kills John on a well. Arthur dies. Micah doesn't directly kill him, but he does die. John buries him on a hilltop.
Speaker 1:You get to build a house with John.
Speaker 2:You get to build a house with John. The ultimate tragedy of Arthur's sacrifice for John is ultimately what happens to John in Red Dead Redemption Getting pulled back into the outlaw life on behest of the FBI to hunt down Dutch, and then the FBI turns on John and kills him. So, like you know, unfortunately the tragic part for Arthur is that his sacrifice gave John the opportunity to raise a family, but ultimately John also lost his life to the life that Arthur was trying to get him away from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's good, that's a good one. Um, I want to talk about? I want to talk about magnus magnus, please. I want to talk about magneto, because he is the definition out of all these points, this is going to be the first one of. You know, the idea of he was never bad, but it it's. It's. It's the line that he throws to him in X-Men first class, which was such a such a brilliant comic book movie about.
Speaker 1:You know, I've been at the mercy of men, following orders my whole life, like, and then going to X-Men 97, like, never again. Like, never again. I have seen the absolute horrors that humanity would have. But at this point, you know this is. I guess this is a little bit more X-Men 97 encoded, but you know, I've seen everything I've seen. I've seen because of my, my religion. I've seen people murdered. I've seen, because of my race, people murdered. I've seen people because of my mutation, seen because of my race, people murdered. I've seen people because of my mutation, people murdered just to be murdered, like Magneto had every right to want to be as radicalized as he was.
Speaker 2:How many more of your bones will pave the way to Xavier's future?
Speaker 1:Episode two, we talked about it. You're like, wait, is he right? Episode one is like cool as heck you know. And then you get to episode two. We talked about it. You're like, wait, is he right? Episode one is like cool as heck you know. And then you get to episode two and you're like wait a wait, wait a minute. Yeah, wait a minute. So I guess this is a little bit more. I not not the fact that it's like more x-men 97 encoded, it's more of like how good x-men 97 is and thinking about how well it understands Magneto as a character as a person, even the Singer Trilogy understood it To the point where, when you threw out the name Magneto, I'm like, eh, but shit.
Speaker 2:In Days of Future Past he makes the heroic sacrifice, yeah he does. Magneto's the one who, who closes, closes the door behind behind him. Yep, to keep you know, to keep wolverine and company alive but in the same movie as his younger self.
Speaker 1:Like, what a better villain to hero like he. He's ready to. He, he's ready to kill the x-men for what he needs like this, is that that's what I'm saying. Like he has done horrible, terrible things. Like he is, he is the villain. He's plotted against the x-men. How many times he has his brotherhood of evil mutants like this is that's magneto, but it's that. It's that piece of what he's seen. It's the piece of you know he's. He's seen true evil and magneto is not true evil.
Speaker 2:He will never be yeah, yeah, that's a, it's a, it's a great one. Um, where do I want to go now with this? Um, you know what we we gotta talk about? Damien dark, I don't care.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let's have some fun for a little bit. Uh, we gotta talk about damien dark. Just refer arrowverse retrospective. That's gonna be like a four. That's gonna be like a month-long week by week thing. Yeah, break it up into like five parts yeah, um, damien dark, um 20 character 80.
Speaker 2:Neil mcdonough yeah, I guess you could. You could say about this character um arrow season four. He shows up um and it's not. It's not great. We've litigated arrow season four in the past. He is kind of just generic magic-y villain guy who wants to destroy the world, but there's a certain charisma and a certain charm there.
Speaker 1:Did the charisma save him on this one?
Speaker 2:And then they decide, like they do with all you know, to quote Tyrion Lannister. To quote Tyrion, they take the cripples, bastards and broken things of the Arrowverse and put them in Legends of Tomorrow. Yeah, then they make them good. Well, they wait a bit, because in season two of Legends of Tomorrow, they bring Damian Dark back as a member of the. What were they, masters?
Speaker 1:of Evil, the Legion of Doom, not to be confused with the Legion of Boom.
Speaker 2:Him, malcolm Merlin, reverse Flash, they lose Spoiler alert and then he returns in season four. Was it season four?
Speaker 1:I can't remember I thought it was later than that.
Speaker 2:Eventually he comes back and he becomes a good guy. But why does he become a good guy? Because he loves his daughter. Because he loves his daughter. And again, how human his nora, his nora, his nora doll. Yeah, how human of him. Who's who? Nora starts out more evil than damien dark. Yeah, she's. She's in a I'm in a bad way. And then she meets brian and ralph in real life. In real life and on the show. Right, they are together, which is phenomenal. And, yeah, damien dark eventually lives for his daughter. Um, he sacrifices himself for his daughter to the point where he becomes barry allen's moral conscience. I don't even in season six of the, in the crossover episode of the final season of the flash. I don't understand. Let's not even go there. You're damien dark. Why are you giving me sound moral advice right now? This?
Speaker 1:doesn't make any sense, but I'm doing it because it's my job.
Speaker 2:Shout out New McDonagh.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's just having fun. Oh, he's having a blast. We talk about again the refrain that we talk about constantly on this show when are involved in things that may not be the best. Um, he understood the assignment. Yeah, he understood the assignment, and then he realized that he could get away with a lot of neil mcdonough isms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's it's pretty great, it is pretty great.
Speaker 2:He like once he got into that legend sphere and they were just like are you damien dark anymore or you just neil mcdonough in a trench coat? And he's like both, both. And they're like all right, yeah. So like once he got outside of arrow season four, like yeah, it got the character got way more tolerable yeah, he just didn't fit in.
Speaker 1:He didn't fit arrow, but he fit legends, like a like, a like a glove.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was tremendous.
Speaker 1:So damian dark um I might have to re-watch legends, because legends is the most unhinged, incredible, weird show I've ever seen.
Speaker 2:But also Hitcher. Where it hurts, sometimes it does.
Speaker 1:It does. I'm telling you you see what I I'm telling you when we decide when the Arrowverse needs a full, because, to talk about it as a whole, whenever we do this five-hour-long episode where we actually bring all the stars on, you don't understand that Arrowverse. It was special.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't want to assign you one like for your next, but do you want to just talk, Captain Cold, now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we're already here. I mean, who better than Captain Cold to talk about a villain to hero? And I mean again, true villain to hero, true villain to hero him, true villain, and I mean he was just uh, but again his whole thing too. It's kind of like the magneto point of like my past defined me, like my past is the reason that I'm here, like I am villainous because of the things that I went through, like he was abused as a kid, like the trauma that he went through and like I say what you will, like the flash and the flash and legends did a good job about talking about that for captain cold. Like, talking about like, especially once you get to season two for captain cold or season two or season three season, yeah, two, I think it is two. Yeah, the the mid-season finale on christmas but yeah, I think they're christmas, yeah merry christmas, you're out of marshmallows.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna murder you. But yeah, I mean they do such a good job and I mean a lot of this goes to wetworth miller too.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's just like again you start arrows or you start flash season one. You're like this is just a cackling tv show, corny villain. And then you're like, wait, a, that's my favorite part about the Arrowverse. Like you get there and you're like, oh, this is stupid fun. And then you're like wait a second, wait a minute. Am I intrigued? Am I invested in Captain Cold? Captain Cold, heatwave, heatwave, arc. Question mark In the prison break guys For prison break guys for prison break.
Speaker 2:Genius bit of casting, by the way.
Speaker 1:Even Rip Hunter. You start with Rip Hunter and you're like he's this cool British guy with a laser gun. And then you get deeper into the season and you're like, ah, this is kind of sad oh no, oh, no, bro.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, obviously, they bring again Cripples, bastards and Broken Things. They bring Captain Cold on to Legends, where the hero arc hits fourth year, and he becomes along with Katie Lotz and Sarah Lance. They're essentially the two protagonists. They wanted to make Hawkman and Hawkgirl a thing and it didn't happen, Unfortunately for Hawkman and Hawkgirl.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, unfortunately, for Hawkman Hawkgirl was like it is what it is.
Speaker 2:We realized. The Legends team realized pretty early on that Sarah and Snart were the main characters.
Speaker 1:Almost to the detriment, because they tried to make them a thing. No good, no, no good.
Speaker 2:No good, oh dear, oh dear, we almost went down a dangerous path. Yeah, um, but we didn't. Um, but uh, yeah, and, like I said, legend season one, kind of kickstart, like kick snarts, heroism turn in overdrive. And obviously there's this whole through line of legend season one of, like you guys are destined, you know, you're on, you're on fate's time, essentially, and it culminates with captain cold's iconic, iconic line when he sacrifices himself for sacrifices himself, he sacrifices himself. Who would have thought, who'd have thought captain cold would have done that?
Speaker 2:um, he would have like, found a way out anything yeah, he grabs, he's in the fusion core and he what's it with fusion cores? And he waves like start you idiot, like get out of there. I mean you know heat wave, obviously, villainy hero, um but and then snart looks there are no strings on me, and then he gets incinerated and you're like you feel, you felt it. Legends has a way of doing that and it ultimately culminates in in you know, when the legends get back to the modern day and and barry barry the flash, the hero literally asks them like where's snart?
Speaker 2:like what happened and then like uh, I think it's the adam kind of gives him a look and barry's like what happened? And ralph says like he died, he died a hero. And bar goes a legend. And I'm like, oh, that's that writing They'd be talking about Um. So it starts a great, great choice, um. And then I he's come back in in in variations yeah, I hate fire. Um, where did I want to go next with one? Um, fast and furious, don't do it. I'm next with one um, fast and furious, don't do it, I'm doing it. I'm talking about deckard shaw. Damn it, fast and furious. A franchise littered with with villain to hero turns, um, none. Probably the most popular one is deckard shaw. I flirted with hobbs, but hobbs isn't really a villain. No, he's an antagonist, right, but he's not a villain, right, he's not a bad guy, he's just the Rock.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess my point about another. We're going to do another like movie movie. Did I just call Fast and Furious a movie movie? They were movie movies before.
Speaker 2:But yeah, decker Shaw is. We don't quite know how he got onto the heroism side. We don't really know.
Speaker 1:No, he just showed up and he just was protecting Vin Diesel's baby.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of, you know it's flimsy, but all things in the Fast and Furious universe are flimsy. And again, this is kind of like the Damien Darkpoint. It's carried by the charisma of Jason Statham, where you're just like I'm bored, like you were the transporter. That's right. Right, maybe you are a hero like, maybe, like I instantly buy jason statham as a cockney british good guy. Right, like you know you, you, you have villainous features, but you're a hero at heart, right, which is essentially deckard shaw in a nutshell. Yeah, that's all I wanted to say about deckard sh.
Speaker 1:That's it. He's Jason Seatham. Yeah, oi.
Speaker 2:Oi, hey man, he's British.
Speaker 1:Oh, Billy Butcher reverse arc.
Speaker 2:He was beating that guy up in Fast X in a duffel bag.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was.
Speaker 2:Or a heavy bag.
Speaker 1:That was so cranky. Remember when he reconciled with Han. Yeah with Han, yeah when he killed.
Speaker 2:Han. Yeah, but he didn't, because Han was a hologram the whole time. I hate everything. Kurt Russell was behind it.
Speaker 1:That Fast and Furious franchise is nuts. Remember when Alan Richen was in it? Just make him kiss Dude, listen, listen, hollywood, hollywood, you're on the phone with a genius. Give Alan Richen and Jason Momoa the relationship and then kill Alan Richen and really have Jason Momoa go off the absolute deep end. That's storytelling.
Speaker 2:Oh man, good stuff, deckard Shaw.
Speaker 1:Deckard Shaw. Let's talk about Bucky.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's talk about Bucky James.
Speaker 1:Buchanan Barnes I can spell, I can spell, I can spell. One day we're gonna do a retrospective, specifically on tommy lee jones, how you put that gun down now.
Speaker 1:I did not kill my wife but uh, yeah, talk about bookie, I mean the, it's the, it's the beauty and the horror of buffy that's the best way I can say it. I mean, he has probably one of the best culminations of overcoming. You know what I mean when that scene in Falcon and the Winter Soldier where he's in Wakanda and he breaks his, that's true. I think I texted you after that. I said wait a second, why is this episode making me feel something right now? And I mean you want to talk about completely villainous, like an assassin, like this was an assassin with no mind or no control. Like imagine living in your body, like that.
Speaker 1:It's kind in a way, it's kind of the same thought process as jamie. Like jamie, it's like you know, I was just a guy following some orders and I made a decision like obviously Bucky didn't have decision making to do, necessarily, but you know, I think what Captain America 1 does a great job of setting up, like this is going to be. There's so much tragedy in this of like look at this cool, charismatic James Bucky Barnes, like physically fit, like I'm like a cool guy, you know, and then like to get all of that stripped away with you without will and you know, say what you will. Falcon and the Winter Soldier shows that in a really, really great way of how much even possibly better than Captain America Civil War of this is frightening. This is frightening. This man was just stripped of every single last thing that he ever had and to go through how he needed to get it back, that is a true villain to hero.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, needed to get it back like that is a true villain to hero. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean. And it all culminates obviously in that scene, the falcon, the winter soldier, when you see him get his programming stripped away and how much it means to him. Yep, you know, and you know much like kind of. You know much like. Jamie lannister carries the sins of his past. Bucky also carries the sins of his past for a long time. You know it's. It's one of the core cruxes civil war, like excuse me, thank you, um, you know he has to reconcile with the fact that he killed Tony's parents, more importantly his mom, right, um. But Tony even asked him in the midst of that fight, like do you even remember her?
Speaker 1:And B that fight like do you even remember her? And bucky says I remember them all. Yep, and you're like.
Speaker 1:And then they play on that so well in falcon and the winter soldier, where you know, you think it's like bucky's just having lunch with this random old guy and yeah, like, yeah, oh, like he he murdered and he doesn't know how to deal with it too.
Speaker 1:And the point that I don't think people think about enough is like bucky and steve were like they weren't kids but they were young when they, when they were in in world war ii, like they bucky was a young man when he died, like that, and that has how much growing he got to do, like he didn't get to do more growing after that. Like he was just he was, you know, a cold-blooded, like, no-minded assassin after that, like obviously, like there were points where he could turn it off but but then he would get just put on ice when he would turn it off. So to see what he went through in Falcon and the Winter Soldier, of like, and like I said, it's the horror of it too. Like he not only for himself, but like overtly like he that's like that scene where he goes to you know he murders, whatever his name is his son, like that's scary.
Speaker 2:Like dang, whatever his name is son, like that's scary like dang, he really had no mind and no remorse after this too, and like how powerful he is on top of that too. Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, I'm gonna talk. I'm gonna talk a little anime here. I'm gonna talk about the prince of all saiyans. We're gonna talk about vegeta.
Speaker 2:Um, I mean, dragon ball is another one that's littered with this trope. Um piccolo starts out this way, um tn starts out this way, but vegeta obviously is, is the most popular. I mean, he starts out on the beginning of dragon ball z. He is a, a world conqueror. He's coming to earth to conquer earth. Conquer earth, um with, with napa, um, he is obviously goku's chief rival to reluctant ally, to eventually sacrifices himself for Earth when he becomes Majin Vegeta, and he, you know, he has a brief, brief, bucky-esque mind control going on and then ultimately snaps out of it, sacrifices himself and becomes a hero, a true hero. He was a bit of a legend, wasn't he? Driven, you know, mostly by personal gain and personal desire, but eventually steps outside himself, has a family, he marries Bulma, has trunks. That also kind of changes his perspective on things and it's a great classic villain to hero arc for Vegeta Because, again, obviously it's animated.
Speaker 2:It's anime. So the scale and the gravity of what he's doing in the beginning of Dragon Ball Z is not as visceral, I say, like Jamie Lannister pushing Brain out the window. But I mean he destroys cities and he kills a lot of people. I know in the Dragon Ball universe humans are kind of like fodder. But he does some pretty heinous stuff in the middle of Dragon Ball Z. But he does some pretty heinous stuff in the media of Dragon Ball Z. You know he's constantly poking and prodding, constantly being one-upped, constantly angry. But it becomes an endearing. He becomes angry Uncle Vegeta essentially by the time he gets into Dragon Ball Super, to the point where he ends up in Dragon Ball Super where he befriends Cabba Saiyan of an alternate universe's Earth and he ultimately sacrifices himself again in the Tournament of Power so that his universe can live on. That is not a hero. Dang it, I don't know what is. That's true, that's nice.
Speaker 1:Shout out Vegeta, you're always getting crapped on online he is Vegeta, vegeta.
Speaker 2:Who would win in a fight? Stephen A Goku or Vegetar?
Speaker 1:I'm going to have to go with Vegetar. I'm going to have to go with Goku, because I don't know who Vegetar is.
Speaker 2:You didn't think I knew Dragon Ball. You don't you?
Speaker 1:don't You're lying, buddy. Do you want to talk about one of the most classic movie villains? And we're going to switch over to the sports realms of movies.
Speaker 2:we're going to talk about apollo creed. I love this one. When you mentioned this to me, I was like that's such a good one, one of the first ones and I'm like this is we're relating towards antagonists, but I mean rocky is one of the classics. I mean it's a, it's a consummate classic he's as villainous as you can get for a boxing movie.
Speaker 1:Until you get to Drago, and that's my point.
Speaker 2:And again, there's always a bigger fish, a bigger Russian fish Right.
Speaker 1:Apollo's so interesting because it's such a great person to put against Rocky in the first one too. It's like the perfect counter, like this golden gloves, like you know. Again, charismatic like this man is, he is him. Like he has everything and everything that he would ever want. And like what's this little italian guy from philadelphia ever gonna think he's ever gonna do to me? Like I am, I am the greatest like, and it's it's your willful ignorance of the underdog, I think is a perfect. There's a blindness that comes along with Apollo that he couldn't be beat.
Speaker 2:Well, he gives Rocky the opportunity because he thought that'd be fun. Give him this. Give this kid from Philly a shot at the champ.
Speaker 1:This is going to be great. He's like obviously I'm going to beat him, obviously I don't have a problem, but promotional, this is great. And then and again, like thinking about like a corporate greed sense of it, like that was apollo. Apollo was so caught up in all of those things, and like after he gets out of the ring with rocky, it's like you know, I'm a different man now, like I. I think what apollo really gained was respect, like it was a piece of his life that he didn't have until he needed to have it.
Speaker 2:Like he got respect and he got perspective on top of that too and he won, but also felt like he needed to get his lick back, exactly, exactly he's like I actually have to, like I might have won, but like I have to, like, prove myself now as like a fighter, right, that I can beat this man right, and then he doesn't, he loses to right, and then that ultimately culminates in rocky 3, when you know, rocky gets his brains beat in by clever lang right and he go, where does he go to get, you know, get his mojo back right to apollo, and I mean again.
Speaker 1:Another piece of this is you know, rest in peace to carl weathers as well and it's the cell of like you know, there's more to me too. Like I'm not I wasn't always like I'm I did this because of you, know, I have to fight. Like I too, like I'm not, I wasn't always like I'm. I did this because of you know, I have to fight Like I'm a fighter, like I need to be this, like antagonistic person until I don't have. Like now I can step back, like now I can teach you, you know, I got to teach you like how to be powerful again, how to be I'm strong, like I'm strong, strong like an ox, like I have to teach you my ways a little bit too.
Speaker 1:Like I love how, for him, his hero is more of like the wise old sage he turns into, which is funny, but then he does what most wise old stages do they unfortunately have to sacrifice themselves for the younger one too. So to get to Rocky four and to see like it was all it's like, it was like the Colson thing for the Avengers, like Apollo needed to die for Rocky to win, like that's kind of how it went to go. So Again, this is more of like a meta, like movie-thinking way of it, but Apollo, going from like one of the most classic antagonists in movie history to like one of the most beloved characters in movie history, really said something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's a. That's when you said that I was like wait. When you said that I was like wait. That's actually genius. Alright, it's time to get some heavy hitters.
Speaker 1:Loki you want to talk about the Scarlet Witch, or you want to talk about Loki.
Speaker 2:Loki, I think, because Wanda kind of does a bit of this. She starts. I wouldn't say she's a villain in Age of Ultron, she's like an antagonist maybe she's tough, maybe she shouldn't even belong on this list because it's like.
Speaker 1:Again, this is like the meta way of thinking of like she was presented as the, as the villain, like in the comics too. Like her and quicksilver were just villains against the avengers until they weren't like yeah, it's, it's the same concept for her. Essentially, she's not the bad guy, she's just like. She's like loki is a true transformation, literally and figuratively I can't say enough good things about that loki show.
Speaker 1:Like you, you just you can't. And I will. I I've always admitted it, I will always admit it to the end of the day. I was not not. When they announced that Loki show my first I said why, what is? What? Is this Like? This makes no, this makes no. And this was post-Endgame. I was like this makes no sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're gonna take Loki from Avengers 2012 and just give him a show, not even that.
Speaker 1:I'm just why, like there's other characters that like need, play and need, and like new characters that we need to see, but like loki's getting his own show and again that just shows to the level of filmmaking that they were working with and the level of talent they were working with.
Speaker 2:But we didn't know we didn't know.
Speaker 1:But I mean, again, loki was a villain, but again, it's not that simple. Like, imagine your brother is, you know, touted to be the most important man in the nine realms and you have to live with that every single day of your life, like you know, and then you find out that that's not even your brother. On top of that too, and this isn't even your family, and, like my blood is literally littered with, like these creatures that are, like built upon being evil and antagonistic, like but what was his tether? It was his mother. Like it's just, it's such a simple thing and it's like it's one of the only good things that Thor 2 does of like it's just that little piece where Loki, like they don't even have dialogue in the scene.
Speaker 1:I think I think one of the guards just comes whispers like you know Frigga is dead and like like Loki just lose like one little flare up of anger. And that was it, because you know he's one of those, like posh, like I have to have keep up appearances, but he's like he let it go because he truthfully loved his mother and I think he truthfully loved all of them. He just maybe not Odin, but I think he truthfully loved Thor too. He just didn't want to admit it until he did the sun will rise on us again, brother.
Speaker 2:And then you get to Loki.
Speaker 1:And then tell me, man, what Loki the end of episode one of Loki, does so simply. It's like I always say it. It's like. It's so incredible, it's radicalization. It's like and you think about it too.
Speaker 1:I remember I thought about it. I was like, wow, this could be like a psychological course, like how would you react if you saw your entire life play out in seconds? Like you just saw everything that happened in your entire life and no glorious purpose, like in a shot. And like your glorious purpose is that you were murdered, and that's it. It by the person that said I will give you power to take your throne. Like that person just murdered you, left you on the ground on a ship and that was it.
Speaker 1:I would probably think some things of my life. I would, I would, I would probably want to rework some things, and it's just, it's that simple thing to show again how human he like, how you know how human he is like, how much of a person he is. He's's like I am, I'm still myself, like, I'm still like a jerk, I'm still like I'm still. I'm still Loki. But Maybe this isn't, maybe this is more than me.
Speaker 1:And again, it's the Doctor Strange, it's one of the. It's one of the best lines from the MCU I've ever heard. Dr Strange goes through all these trials and you know he's still thinking about how to save things. And she said it's not about you, nothing of this is about you. Like this is about protection of the multiverse and we need your help. So, like I said for Loki, it's as simple as like it's one that's, the personal gain versus this is bigger than you could ever imagine. Like this is more than you could ever imagine. And I still can't believe. Season two took the swing. And like you want to talk about landing endings for something yeah, what a what an ending that loki season two had, oh for sure, and making him you know god, like I'm talking the god god of stories, loki. And like you want to talk about your sacrifice point. Like he literally sacrificed himself to sit at the end of time to reignite all the multiverses.
Speaker 2:And just the genius of Tom Hiddleston was, you know, the mastermind behind reusing the For you, for All of Us. Because when he delivers it in Thor 1, he doesn't truly believe it when he says you know, I did it, Father, I did it for you, for all of us. And Odin kind of sees through it Like no, you didn't. No, you didn't, you did this for yourself. Like you didn't do this, you didn't do any of this for us. Like what are you kidding me? But then when he brings it back in Loki season two, when he says for you, for all of us, like he means it you know, I'm doing this for, so that not just all of us in this room, like all of us in the entire multiverse, I'm doing this for all of us. And and you buy it, you buy it because of the transformation that he's since undergone and what an incredible chance.
Speaker 1:And I mean you know he's informed by love, his love for sylvie, and he's informed by you know the past love for his mother and his love for mobius, for mobius, and it's just like he, he grew like it showed. Like I said, like it's such a genius. Part of that show is like show me everything from my life. Like, oh god, like I just I just saw everything that I've ever needed to see and like it's such I love the abrupt way it ends. It's just like end, like like. It's like like it was like a, like a short film, like just finn, like this is this. Is it so what an incredible character journey that he went on, how it informs all the other characters, like the character work for loki inside of the confines of the show itself, but the mcu as a whole, it's. It's nothing short incredible.
Speaker 1:And I think Tom Hiddleston helps it for Thor 2. Tom Hiddleston gets it through the Thor 2's writing. It helps because if it's not him it might fail and fall and they might not trust him again. Then you get to Ragnarok and you're like again the layers start to peel and peel. And then you get to the Loki show and you're like, well, thinking of the MCU, still you're thinking of Thor 2 and you're like, how good could this get? It's the best that it could have ever got.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean yeah Again, having Hiddleston being able to do what he can do, it just takes it to another level and it just makes for one of the most compelling character arcs in Marvel, like in the MCU yeah, I mean, we even talked about it.
Speaker 1:we were like, when, you know, we, we made our claim for you know, we made our claim for, you know, main character, like our first thought was Loki. Like we were like at this point, especially at, like, what better way would you do? For you know, at the time, kang dynasty, like you know, all this multiversal stuff was happening like, what a, what an incredible arc to get back to. Like you find out that loki, like kang's plot is to kill loki because he knows that he's the one that's holding all these timelines together. And, like you know, the avengers have to, like through dr strange, like go protect loki. And you know, thor and loki finally meet again and he said, I, I told you the sun would rise on like, would rise on us again. That's that cinema they talk about that we're never gonna get um.
Speaker 2:You got, you got another one, you got one more. We'll do one more one more piece.
Speaker 1:Oh, don't do this to me. Just one more piece, steve harrington.
Speaker 2:No, that was a fun one let's do, let's talk about steve, yeah it doesn't have it doesn't have to be our one more, but we could. We could about Steve a little bit.
Speaker 1:And again, this is a little bit more of a meta way of thinking of it, but you know Stranger Things in-universe too. Like Steve was a jerk, I hated him yeah. I hated him Season one hated him. He did bad things. Like he did bad things, he broke Nancy's heart. He broke Nancy's wait. Wait a minute, once you get further for steve's art.
Speaker 1:Nancy broke steve's heart and then he becomes the best guy he becomes the best guy, because the best part about steve's whole thing of being, because again, in the meta sense he, he was like the your 80s cool, like great hair, great hair. And then like on a two-pronged front. Then you get to What's-His-Name, you get to Dacre Montgomery in Season 2, and you're just like, oh no, there was a bigger fish. Oh, in T-1000. There was a T-1000. It's the T-1000 of 80s jerks, 80s teen jerks. And Steve showed his humanity through that. He was the T-800. He was the outdated model. And then again, get down, he protected the kids. He's their mom now I don't know how any of this.
Speaker 2:He's got a great friendship with Robin. He's back. Will they? Will they with Nancy?
Speaker 1:Right, but he's so accepting of Robin on top of that too, and all the kids. He'll give his life, happily for any of them, he's the best guy, but he wasn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can't. I still remember how much I hated him in season one. He's just, you're scum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's scummy. He's just scummy. 80's gonna break your heart before you find the guy that has the heart of gold, the guy that has the heart of gold which they play on with him, and Jonathan, and then you realize he should have just stayed with Steve. Jonathan might just be weird yeah, he might be like a weird guy, but Steve's protective he can provide. Dude, he works at the what's it called the video store. No, no, oh yeah, he got his job at the video store. Heck, yeah, nice Steve.
Speaker 2:Steve the video store. No, no, oh yeah, he got a job at the video store. Heck, yeah, nice steve. Steve, he's the, he's the best he's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's so cool, I fucking hated his guts, but now you don't.
Speaker 2:Now I only want the best for steve yeah, yeah, yeah, I thought man, I thought he was gonna die last season yeah, I thought he was.
Speaker 1:I thought he was a goner a gonerer.
Speaker 2:But then Eddie stepped in and said hold my beer, I'm the goner. Actually this season let's talk about Sheef Palpatine. Just kidding, we're actually not going to talk about Sheef Palpatine.
Speaker 1:Should I go with mine first, because this is, I mean, anakin. There's no other way than to end on Anakin. Yeah, I'm going to go with Doc Ock. Yes, as a whole. Yes, and I mean your Doc Ock. You know, from comics you can go for maybe not the Spider-Man games, he's a bad guy but he has the inverse arc. He goes from a good guy to a villain.
Speaker 1:But you know comic Doc Ock like and you know comic doc ock like and you know movie doc ock, specifically spider-man 2 we can kind of focus on more of like. You know he wasn't a bad guy, he just, you know, obviously his brain was being infected on top of that too. But you know noble sacrifice, sometimes it's simple, like that noble sacrifice to understand this is bigger than me. And like again, another piece we don't talk about enough is what have I done? Like I like seeing the horror of what you created, like that's a big piece for bucky. Like I saw the horror of what I've done never again. Like I can no more. He built the sun. Yeah, he did build the sun. Nice, I love how I think I think cinema sense talks about he's like absolutely insane scientific advancement being usurped by another insane scientific advancement is insane. Man makes a sentient robotic system that attaches to the brain cells to make sure that they work and he's like this is nothing. I made the sun and you're like huh, huh, huh.
Speaker 2:I will not die a monster.
Speaker 1:Character actor, Alfred Molina. He's the best. He is the best.
Speaker 2:What did you do with my machine? I thought he really became a hero.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he did Twice. He did that. He pulled the same arc twice. That's the genius of Alfred.
Speaker 2:Molina yeah, shout out to him, it's a great yeah. I of Alfred Molina yeah, shout out to him, it's a great yeah. I mean, yeah, it's. I think we also tweaked. I think we also one of the things, one of the many things maybe not many things, but one of the things we did get right about Spider-Man the Way Home was we were like Doc Ock's going to turn into a good guy, right, mm-hmm, first he got thrown out of a building by Electro, then he got thrown off of the Statue of Liberty by Green Goblin. It's a good thing he has those arms. Peter, my boy, how are you doing? Trying to do better?
Speaker 1:Not enough of that I have my gripes with. Look, I'm a second half truther of no Way Home. The second half of no Way Home goes absolutely wildly insane. The first half it feels artificial, does not feel like an actual movie. The hell.
Speaker 2:There I was Sitting in the grid.
Speaker 1:Sitting in the grid recharging and then oh shit. Jamie Foxx was cooking in that movie, because he was just Jamie Foxx, I know.
Speaker 2:There was nothing at all.
Speaker 1:Max Dillon and Electro about him Absolutely not. He switched universes in a deadpool. Understanding the universe knew that he looked like jamie foxx, so like he took jamie foxx's consciousness into max dylan's, like knowledge. That's how I think about it, because how did he get a hairline? He got a fresh cut hairline you duck uck what was handmaid doing in that movie? You know thomas hayden church. They said can you record like 12 lines?
Speaker 2:he's like sure can you, can you literally and figuratively phone this in.
Speaker 1:I love the headcanon that he wanted to be in the movie but it was going to be too expensive so they were like one of them can't be in this movie.
Speaker 2:Spider-Man and the Way Home.
Speaker 1:They cut Reese Fonz Cowards, Not my king.
Speaker 2:Reese.
Speaker 1:Fonz Not the best character actor Rishi Fonz, Otto Hightower. Arc TBD. Yeah, yeah, it might be coming. It might be on the way. My grandson is a fool.
Speaker 2:Alright, let's talk about Vader.
Speaker 1:This is the archetype of the. Yeah, this is it, this is the one, this is the one. Can Space Hitler be redeemed? Come on man, why'd you have to say it like that?
Speaker 2:Now I don't want to answer.
Speaker 1:Hear me out no, palpatine was Space Hitler. True, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2:All right, let's talk about Space Hitler. No, no, no, no, no. If you play the arc in reverse, no, no. If you play Palpatine's arc in reverse, he goes from Space Hitler to well-intentioned galactic senator.
Speaker 1:He turns into Tim Walls.
Speaker 2:Senator Sheev, should we talk about Vader and Kylo Ren at the same?
Speaker 1:time. Yeah, Kylo Ren's my man. I have so much, I have so much heart for Kylo Ren, and I wish things would have unraveled differently.
Speaker 2:I mean, the problem with Kylo Ren's villain-to-hero arc is the Last Jedi. Well, he goes from villain-to-hero in about 30 minutes, right.
Speaker 1:With no explanation. Oh and Rise of Skywalker. There's explanation, but it's like he sees his dad. I can't believe Harrison Ford came back for this Me either. I can't believe harrison ford came back for me either. I can't believe he did it. He should have said no. No, he wanted to have 300 million dollars to make indiana jones, so he was saying yes to everything I was stunned when he showed back up.
Speaker 2:I was like wait a minute, no, not like this. That was more shocking than when the rock came back to fast and furious no, it wasn't, no, it wasn't, no, it wasn't no, it wasn't, but yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2:I mean Kylo Ren, it could have been special, which is honestly like. When I saw Force Awakens for the first time, I was sure I was absolutely, 100%, thousand positive. I'm like, oh, they're going to do a reverse Anakin with Kylo Ren and they're going to start him on the dark side and by the end of the thing he's going to be on the light side, and they just didn't do it until the last 20 minutes of Rise of Skywalker and then he became cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he was so cool. He's like he should have made one of them flicks.
Speaker 2:Not my fan favorite character is the Knights of Ren. I'm bringing that bit back from episode 5 of the podcast what's his name?
Speaker 1:what's his name from the Acolyte, everybody's thirst trap favorite? What's his name in the Alchimere? He's probably one of the knights of Ren all your favorites are there.
Speaker 2:I'm bringing this bit back axe guy hammer guy, sword guy another axe guy?
Speaker 1:was there a guy with a gun? I can't remember. The gun is so out of place. It seems much funnier, but it doesn't work. There's a guy with a mace. I think it was a mace hawk girl's like I want.
Speaker 2:I want copyright infringement yeah, one time one day we're gonna talk about justice league unlimited one day we're gonna talk about the knights of ren, knights of ren retrospective. I'll give you retrospective, the knights of ren. They have such deep, tragic backstories. The one guy why do they have, why do they have weird medieval weapons in star wars?
Speaker 1:I don't understand. I don't know who the knights of ren? They didn't even have.
Speaker 2:Like none of them even had. Like it wasn't even like the. You know like the praetorian guards had. Like they None of them even had, like it wasn't even like the. You know like the Praetorian Guards had. Like they had stabs, but like they had, like they were like cool, yeah, they had like electric bits at the end. That's because Rian Johnson's cool the Knights of Ren just had regular weapons.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't know Because Vader gave all the he gave all the lightsabers to the to the Inquisitors.
Speaker 2:Kylo Ren saw the Inquisitors and said never again, never again, never again, while I get my underlings lightsabers. You get an axe.
Speaker 1:You get a sword you also get an axe. I'm telling you. One of them had a gun, but it only works. Weapon Can't even be fired. It's a bayonet.
Speaker 2:It's a space bayonet. Alright, we gotta talk about Darth Vader. It's enough about the Knights of Ren. I'm gonna time code that bit.
Speaker 1:Knights of Ren talk. Knights of Ren Wait Villains to heroes. Who knows Pending art.
Speaker 2:No, he killed them all, didn't he?
Speaker 1:Did he kill all the Knights of Ren? I think they are all. Oh yeah, yeah, he had to murder all of them because he was cool again. He just got a nice long sleeve. It was kind of tough when he pulled the lightsaber from he David Blaine-ed that, but then he just, and then it turned into like a, and then it turned into like an Edgar Wright movie.
Speaker 2:He had like a little. He's like with the lightsaber. That was cool. You're never going to guess what's behind my back. The lights have rendered like. Surely it's not a lightsaber, right?
Speaker 1:This is a Buster Keaton skit. Now it was a lightsaber You're unarmed Am.
Speaker 2:I Am. I Did you check behind your ear for this lightsaber. Cut his head off. That would have been so much better. What if he kept making it disappear and found it in different spots?
Speaker 1:Ray's, just like putting it in different spots.
Speaker 2:Somebody that's never watched Star Wars, that listened to that bit is probably like what I may not have my lightsaber now, but did you check behind your cape? Cape, I don't even have a cape, do you? He's just making different things appear and disappear. Where's my axe?
Speaker 1:Said axe guy of the.
Speaker 2:Knights of Ren.
Speaker 1:Check your shoe, check your stomach. Oh no, he murdered me. Whoa, whoa, whoa, got your nose, got your nose, whoa. No, it's a lightsaber in my, in my face. Oh no, he does have my nose.
Speaker 2:Kylo Ren street magician.
Speaker 1:That's it. That's the Kylo Ren portion. I don't even want to commit to even talking about his arc anymore. I just want to talk about Vader now. It wasn't good.
Speaker 2:I didn't it unearned. You can't just become a good guy.
Speaker 1:I told you that I mean, the big thing for Kylo Ren is like they should have kept the number one, should have kept him alive. Yeah, you would have kept him alive and you did that whole thing. Yeah, oh boy, it would have been great. You could have had him come back for these new movies and been like alright, I'm going to train some Jedi. Everybody in the galaxy is like wait, a minute, wait hold on a second.
Speaker 2:Aren't you the guy who trained the knights of red?
Speaker 1:no, they don't care about that. They care about the planet murdering. Those guys were what? That's what everybody hates the knights of red. They're just like. I can't believe you trained the knights of red. He's like you don't remember like the five planets he blew up. Remember star killer? Yeah, star killer was an issue villain hero arc for the death star.
Speaker 2:They built a bigger death they built a bigger death. Talk about, talk about anakin all right, we're gonna talk about vader um, that was crazy they did build a bigger death star. They did, we did the death star and then they built a bigger palpatine or a smaller palpatine. He was cutting ass, I don't know. They did build a bigger palpatine. It was Supreme Leader Snoke. He was bigger Palpatine.
Speaker 1:How did his lightning control all of those ships I have? I have? You don't understand how many questions I have.
Speaker 2:Where do you get all the steel for all the starter droids?
Speaker 1:Look, I'm very forgiving when it comes to lore, because lore is stupid, lore is dumb. But how is he alive, palpatine?
Speaker 2:I don't know why is ray's granddaughter fortnight explained it, I think.
Speaker 1:if I'm not mistaken, I want to like curl up into a ball fortnight explained who are the?
Speaker 2:knights of ren. What do you mean? We?
Speaker 1:already established this, but like no, no, no, let me rephrase. Why are Knights of Ren?
Speaker 2:It'd be kind of funny if all the guys like those guys like were all known for their weapons but they were all actually skilled with each other's weapons. Like, axe Guy was actually good with the big hammer, but they gave him the axe instead. Classic Kylo Ren diversion.
Speaker 1:Dude. What did his character turn into in the last 30 minutes of that movie? He turned into han solo. But like he was fully committed in the last, in the last jedi, he did. He did turn into han solo. He got cool. He remembered he was on solo son. Yeah, he said. He said enough of being leia's son and luke's, luke's nephew, I'm, I'm han solo's kid. Wait a minute, I'm just cool. Now wait a a minute. Look at my hair, I rock. And then he got murdered. Yeah, what was that?
Speaker 2:And then they kissed, but then he died anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But they're a diet in the Force. I don't.
Speaker 1:Don't do it, don't try it.
Speaker 2:Speaking of that, we gotta talk about Anakin. All right, speaking of that, we gotta talk about anakin.
Speaker 1:Um go ahead because this, yeah, go ahead, go ahead, talk about anakin. I mean, what do you think? And, like I said, all time marks. And I mean, you know, from a meta perspective, from like the outside, looking in perspective, you know, starting four, five, six, what an absolute swing for in the 70s doing sci-fi, and said, yeah, I'm gonna start with the fourth, fifth and six and sixth and you're going to have to. He said, you know you guys might not like it, but your kids are going to love it, like the Marty McFly starting four, five, six, are you?
Speaker 2:nuts and making Darth Vader literally the scariest, most evil thing.
Speaker 1:You don't even know if he's a person under there and I mean mean this is the best. Darth vader is the villain. He it's not he in movie talk and in like pop culture talk. Darth vader is the one like he is the. He is the end, all be all. He is the. Like you look any ranking list like best villains, most important, it is darth vader will be one on every single one of those lists yeah and I'm sorry if you didn't put him when you're lying to yourself.
Speaker 1:It's darth vader. He in cinema history, it's darth vader. He is the villain. There is no bigger villain, there's no more. Thanos was creeping a little bit that I that will give brolin some credit. Thanos was creeping, but I mean guess what they were comparing him to. He's like michael jordan. Like what are you getting compared to? You're getting compared to Darth Vader. Yeah, so to give him an arc in the 70s and 80s is something, because you know movies didn't overtly have that, especially in like there was a lot. The 70s and 80s were very clear, cut and dry for like your big blockb and they were also predicated on the heroes.
Speaker 1:Right, and exactly like the 80s action hero. Like there's no subtlety in like trying to think of Indiana Jones. Like there's no Nazis Right, right, exactly Like there's no subtlety to this. Like you're a Nazi, drago, right, you're just the punchy bad guy, you're the robotic I don't know if you're a human or not the t-800, t-800, like you were. Just you showed up and you're like a slasher, like it's yeah I mean, you're movie slashers, yeah right, like that's who you are.
Speaker 1:Darth vader, like you are, you're the big old bad guy that comes around with the red lightsaber, as opposed to everybody's blue and green lightsaber. Like that's who you are, until till empire until empire. Until george lucas said what if I made one of the greatest movies of all time? I am your father huh, have you seen like kids watching that with their parents for the first time? Like videos of that I haven't just like I've seen.
Speaker 1:I saw some videos of like people watching star wars for the first time and like it's a compilation it's cool as hell yeah, and they're just like, excuse me, and like because you can't run and this is why he's the great hell. Yeah, and they're just like excuse me, and like because you can't run away and this is why he's the biggest and greatest villain of all time. You can't run away from who Darth Vader is Like. He is the villain. So for him to be like no, no, no, no, no, he killed Ben.
Speaker 2:Or did he Ben killed himself? If you strike me down, I shall only become all power.
Speaker 1:How does that work? Hacks how does that?
Speaker 2:work yeah he's hacking. How does that work? He's hacking the system. How does that work? But yeah, I mean that singular moment. Like you're conditioned through a new hope, throughout a new hope and most of Empire, that Darth Vader killed Luke's father, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Man.
Speaker 2:They were cooking.
Speaker 1:Ben told me everything he told me, you killed my father. No, I am your father. What you said? What now?
Speaker 2:brother, and then you get to return of the jedi, and that's what return of the jedi goes for it's. It's luke's story, but return of the jedi also applies to vader right and it's like you know, again as much bad as you've done.
Speaker 1:My father's still in there. The jedi that I've heard was did all these great things. You're still in there. You're in there somewhere. Like I need, I need, I need you. Like what? Did you say an arrow roy? I need you to stop. We talked about arrow verse a lot today. We did um, but yeah, I mean, on a serious note, like I need you to. I need you to find who you were again and like it came through. Like anakin skywalker is still anakin skywalker, like the fly boy that you know did all this good throughout, as much as ever. Like you know, tough and rugged as he ever was, like he still was a good person. You know an did all this good throughout that, as ever, like you know, tough and rugged as he ever was, like he still was a good person you know, anakin Skywalker is dead.
Speaker 1:Anakin is gone, only I remain man, he can act, he's got aura, he's got presence. Hayden, yeah, remember in episode what was it? Episode four, where he was just standing there Menacingly, but I didn't know if it was a vision or not, but he was just standing there. I was like, oh shoot.
Speaker 2:You were warned. You were warned what defeat would bring. I will tolerate your failure.
Speaker 1:no longer Remember when he showed up in Fallen Order and you were like what the?
Speaker 2:But going back to Return of the Jedi, that's where the movie culminates, the trilogy culminates. Palpatine realizes, finally realizes, that he can't turn Luke, so he's like, alright, fine, I'm just gonna fry you.
Speaker 1:With my space lightning. Watch this. I'm gonna use this to create a full army later.
Speaker 2:And Vader finally, finally, snaps Don't touch my son. They added that in the re-release Don't touch my son, jerk, don't touch my son, don't do it, that's my son.
Speaker 1:Bleeding alone. It was established in the last movie. And then he dies Honorably, Honorably, nobly, but that leads Anakin to be able to go into the what?
Speaker 2:do you call it Space heaven?
Speaker 1:Force Heaven, force Heaven. Now I can be a Force Ghost.
Speaker 2:And I can be the original actor, and then I can be Hayden Christensen in the re-release. In the re-release version, I can become Hayden Christensen. How does that work? How did he become Hayden Christensen again? Technology, wait, I want to be young Anakin. When I was good Question mark, he did some weird things.
Speaker 1:He did some bad things. Yeah, he did some questionable things. I saw the Clone Wars.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want you to be the great Jedi hero you were.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure that was Obi-Wan. You're looking for Obi-Wan, aren't you? The Tusken Raiders Is this?
Speaker 2:Tusken Raiders Remember when he slaughtered that village of women and children?
Speaker 1:He didn't mean it, not just the women, not just the men, but the women and the children. You know what Padme said we should have a baby, right now.
Speaker 2:If only Luke could be there. You were kind of a brat actually, yeah.
Speaker 1:Shouldn't I get Obi-Wan? I feel like this fits Obi-Wan a little bit more. Was he my dad? They both had blonde hair. Look, padme and Anakin didn't have blonde hair.
Speaker 2:These questions.
Speaker 1:These Come on, boy. Matt Merk these questions.
Speaker 2:These questions need to be answered these questions. What you cooking. Obi-wan, what were you cooking? Padme presumably Anakin's, the father isn't, he Is he, is he?
Speaker 1:Or did you just try to get the trail off of you, buddy?
Speaker 2:Remember when she died because of sadness, that robot was beside itself.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking about the robot. I was just thinking the robot was beside itself. I was just thinking about the robot. I was just thinking the robot was like I don't know what's happening and I'm a robot, I have all the knowledge in the galaxy. I don't understand why she's dying. It makes no sense. The robot said in my thousand years of being being a robot, being a birth robot, I don't know why she's dying. She's never been more healthy than right now. And she just died. I don't get it. Did her heart stop? No, she just died. I don't know what to tell you. Oh god, that would have been so much funnier if that robot was Alan Tudyk. That would have been infinitely more funny yeah, that robot was shocked.
Speaker 2:The babies are perfectly healthy, but we're losing her.
Speaker 1:Obi-Wan's like huh, you didn't mean, you're losing her. What does that even mean? Blood pressure spiking? No, get back losing her. What does that even mean? Blood pressure spiking? No, get back in there. Get back in there. Save my wife? What, nothing, nothing. Save Padme, just get back in there.
Speaker 2:Get back in there and fix it.
Speaker 1:Oh God, we were supposed to talk about the. Now we're talking about how egregious that was. Why is Padme dead Vader killed her? Well, that's what Palpatine said obi-wan killed her because he didn't want anybody to know you did it and because you didn't want me to know.
Speaker 2:It would seem, in your anger you killed her, um. But yeah, vader, vader's arc, um. I mean, yeah, luke, you know, vader sacrifices himself and he's laying there and luke is like come back, come back with us. And vader's like nah, man, nah, for reasons beyond our understanding, I'm dying said no, I don't think I will I got zapped one too many times, kid. I'm sorry that Force Lightning is a bitch.
Speaker 1:Until I can Force Ignite an entire fleet. There's no logic. I don't understand. Also, what happened to Rey's lightning powers? She's good, that's a bad thing. I don't have an answer for you. You know what's the funny thing? I've been doing this for the last two months, for whatever reason. I've been running through bad movies, really bad fandom movies, and just finding them overtly fun. Yeah, so I ran through Four Stick. I watched Daredevil. I've just been watching whatever I could get my hands on so I might watch the Rise of Skywalker, just to be like. This is so funny and dumb. Yahoo, shut up, shut up, forge, shut up, forge. Rip, beast, you would have loved Forge Anakin. Yeah, that was supposed to be such a serious ending and we talked about how we were going to end with that and then we were like why is Padme even dead? Because is it's only one?
Speaker 2:the father, because part of the the anakin deal is is the prequel stuff too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny even how how the comics really dug into how incredible it was for him too and, like, really humanized him at the end of the day yeah, and I mean, you know, say what you want about the obi-wan show, but like that, that ending scene with them is is perfectly emblematic of of the fall and the eventual re-rise because, like obi-wan's trying to appeal, it's anakin. That scene is anakin convincing himself that anakin doesn't exist. If that makes sense, right, like that's what it was. It's not anakin convincing obi-Wan that Anakin doesn't exist. It's Anakin have to convince himself that Anakin doesn't exist, right Like staring Obi-Wan down and hearing Obi-Wan going I'm sorry, anakin for all of it and Anakin going, anakin's not in there, pal have you.
Speaker 1:did you read that as like the last apology From who? From?
Speaker 2:Anakin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, read that as like the last apology. From who? From anakin. Yeah, I don't know what, I don't know if I was like in the minority for it, but I always read that as like the last, like closure, like obviously it was closure, but like it was like an.
Speaker 2:Like I said, it's like an apology basically saying like you didn't, you didn't do this, like I'm, so like I did, I did this and like also like it's.
Speaker 1:You know, obviously the mask was broken, but I'm sorry that I got to this, but I can't go back now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I'm, yeah, like. Yeah, like you know, I've become this monster. So like I have to, in a weird way, like I have to see it through, like there's no going back now, like even if I wanted to come back and maybe a part of me does want to come back like I've done so many heinous things that like and that's the important piece of like there's a, there's a little, and that's finally what luke finally pulls in in the return of the jedi.
Speaker 1:Like there's still a piece of me in here, like anakin's still in here, I just I'm gone. And like padme's gone on top of that, like Padme was probably the only thing that could have saved me, she's gone. And like what other way to? You know, you're my brother and like I, I want you to bring me back. But I'm so embarrassed, I'm so disgusted with like I, you can't. Like I. Just I failed you and I can't say those words as Vader, but I can, you know, I can kind of subliminally give it to you as Anakin for a second, while you can see it, the last time you're ever going to see my face. And then Luke, and then what better way to bring you back than the sun?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's. I think that's ultimately like the point that Luke pulls on is like, yeah, like you've, you've done all these terrible things, but like you can still, you can still come back. Like you can still come back, you can still come back to the light, even after all these things. That's the point. That's the point, I think, that ultimately, I think the old guard of the Jedi, the reason they fall, is because of that. Their world is so black and white and I think that's why their hubris obviously leads to their downfall and the return of the Sith. But Luke's point is and Luke's point, honestly, even the sequel trilogy is along those lines this isn't a black and white thing. There is no inherent good and evil. We make good choices, we make bad choices, but even when we make the horrible choices, we can still make that one good choice that brings us back to the side of the light Two or three moments wade. This episode was sponsored by colossus. Yeah, yeah, that's a great, that's a great point, though, like that's ultimately what luke's point is about. Vader like you, you, you still have a chance, like even while he's like staring palpatine down and vader is still kind of staying out of it, like luke is like you still have a chance to make this right, even like as palpatine's killing luke. Like you still have a chance to make this right and then he eventually does and it ultimately makes all the difference, like it enables him to, I guess, become more in tune with the Force and return to Obi-Wan and Anakin's side and be. You know. I guess you don't truly know if he's been forgiven. I guess, in reality, it doesn't matter If he's been forgiven by the powers that be. That doesn't really matter. What matters is Luke forgave him and that's all that really matters. It doesn't really matter if matters is luke forgave him, yeah, and that's all that really matters. Like it doesn't really matter if anyone else forgave him like luke and, to be honest, like luke never probably felt like he had to forgive him for anything. He just, you know, wanted to free his father from the darkness, yeah, and he ultimately does. And I think that's why vader's.
Speaker 2:You know, obviously you don't ever see him be a hero after becoming Darth Vader. He just has this one heroic act, but because of all the evil he had done, that one heroic act means a lot, right? I think is kind of the gist. Like it's not. You know, I kind of made the joke earlier like how do you forgive? Like basically Space Hitler, but like it's more complex than that, it's not. You know, I kind of made the joke earlier like how do you forgive? Like basically space Hitler, but like it's more complex than that, it's not that simple. Like it's not about it's not that simple, it's not. It's not about forgiving him, it's about him making this act. You know he made a choice.
Speaker 1:Yeah. At the end, like yeah, I mean, one of the biggest parts of this episode is it's not about the things, it's not about who you are, it's about the things that you do. Yeah, and you know as many horrible, terrible acts that you've done, like Vader's. One good act was killing the Emperor who was about to, you know, fully incinerate this universe. Like you did it, like you saved the galaxy like you did it.
Speaker 2:Like you, you saved the galaxy. And, and I mean, and the beautiful part about an invader's case is, like you know, you'll like nobody will ever know yeah, and that sacrifice like he didn't, he, and that's the part that's like that.
Speaker 2:I think that's kind of the point I'm making about the forgiveness pieces, like he didn't do it to be forgiven and he didn't do it to be absolved. You know what I mean? Because he, he, he knew, you know, if he had, if he did this, a, he would probably die and b, no one would know that it was darth vader who saved, yeah, saved, the galaxy even if it was darth vader, how would the public perception?
Speaker 1:they probably wouldn't believe that.
Speaker 2:No absolutely not they wouldn't you know, and so really the only people that know are, you know, our main players. But it's not like they went, went around broadcasting it to the galaxy that darth vader saved the empire, or saved the galaxy, rather like, so I think that's part of it too. Like again, like, going back to like the forgiveness piece. He wasn't doing it for forgiveness or absolution, he was doing it to save his son at the end of the day, like, and doing it because he, where the prequel trilogy informs that decision is, he's done it.
Speaker 2:He did it out of like the the decades long you know, gaslighting that the emperor did to him like the emperor, made him just as much a monster as he made himself, and that's a lot of the point I mean it's the bucky point.
Speaker 1:Like bucky didn't do that to himself, like, but he has to live with the things that he's done yeah, I mean he's.
Speaker 2:You know, as soon as vader gets out of that not even out of the chair, yet he's still strapped to it when the emperor tells him you killed padme out of your anger, like he's already twisting anakin, you know so yeah you know, anakin, you know, like you said, it's, it's the standard, it's the standard bearer. So, um, I guess that's it. That's it Got to end on. Got to end on Vader. Got to end on the, on the man, the man himself, Alex Rodriguez, nope, nope, axe guy from the Knights of Red.
Speaker 2:No, until he was slain down by that murderous Kylo Ren. That murderous Ben Solo struck him down. But yeah, that's going to do it for us this week. You can follow us on Twitter at Project INF underscore pod. You can follow us on Facebook. You can follow us on YouTube at the Project Infinite podcast. You can follow us on Instagram At the Project Infinite pod.
Speaker 1:Next week like I said at the top of the episode, we are to talk about one division. I am so, so, so freaking excited me too.
Speaker 2:I'm really some of you got, you don't?
Speaker 1:understand. You don't understand that one division era the grip the world was shut down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean we'll talk about all that stuff, because all that stuff does inform what happened with that show and like how it had like that kind of like old school tv, like after each episode people jumped online to theorize yeah, what is happening on this show?
Speaker 1:the aerospace engineer, I must say I was. You drank the kool-aid I I. I made the kool-aid. You made and mixed the kool-aid. I was the kool-Aid, I was the Kool-Aid man, I was in. Man, that's wild, and that's why Loki was such a great follow-up, because then we were like, surely nothing will happen in Loki. And then Kang showed up and I was like, oh shoot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we're going to talk about WandaVision and it'll be a good fun time. I'm excited. I honestly have not watched that show since it aired Me neither, so I'm excited to go back to it.
Speaker 1:No, I did, I watched, I did one watch through, but it was more of like a let me put this on to sleep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I haven't. I haven't watched it since it ended, I just remembered.
Speaker 1:I was a great.
Speaker 2:Her final scarlet witch costume was perfect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then shackman on top of that, who's doing fantastic four? And we're going to talk about how informed that 50s and 60s inspired that he was going for in wandavision, like how much of the right person he was for fantastic four. I'm excited, man, I was like his. We talk about it with, like timothy chalamet doing the king before doing dune. Like him doing this was important for him to get to Fantastic Four. There's so many factors that go into this. And then we get to talk about Elizabeth Olsen and how important she is.
Speaker 2:And Paul Bettany, the greatest troll who's ever trolled. There's an actor I worked with that I've wanted to work with my whole career.
Speaker 1:Al Pacino as Bethesda. Yo, we were all in, people were unhinged, we were all in People were unhinged.
Speaker 2:That show was unhinged, not the show, but the it's because we just 2019,.
Speaker 1:We saw Endgame and everybody was in it and then 2020, and then even Kevin Feige's like you got, this is there's no punches pulled. This is like an extension of the movies. We're like, oh shoot, they're going to do it. And then they did it. Then it was just the ship of theses.
Speaker 2:I request elaboration.
Speaker 1:The memes that were born out of that ship.
Speaker 2:Obi-Wan said the robot after he said Padme was dying.
Speaker 1:It was like the Jennifer Lawrence meme. What do you mean? What do you mean? How did?
Speaker 2:she die. I request elaboration. Nope, nope, you can't just walk out like that robot. You gotta tell me what's going on here. Man, what a wacky ending to that movie, um white vision don't call him white vision. Vashon Agatha, all along White Vision, white Vision, don't call him White.
Speaker 1:Vision, vashon Agatha all along. Evan Peters was in that show. He was Tug. This is going to be a fun one.
Speaker 2:I'm excited. That's it. What an era From me.
Speaker 1:Careful man, this is hard. You were going to call me Apollo Creed.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, I was gonna say the captain cole to the podcast there are no strings on me.
Speaker 1:God, he's good.
Speaker 2:Thank you what worth miller? Everybody that was crazy. He popped in for that two second cameo and then he left. You're out of marshmallows.
Speaker 1:I checked.
Speaker 2:Who's he doing?
Speaker 1:in that show? I don't know.
Speaker 2:He was on fire, which is ironic because he was Captain Cold.
Speaker 1:Come on, man Get us out. We gotta go, man we do gotta go.
Speaker 2:All right, guys, we'll see you next week for WandaVision. I am super excited for that. Until then, goodbye.
