The Project Infinite Podcast
A Podcast Spanning The Ever Expanding Infinite Multiverse of Fandom. From movies, to TV, to comics, to the world of gaming, we have you covered at every corner with thoughts, opinions, commentary and a little bit of comedy too.
The Project Infinite Podcast
141 - Farewell to the Arrowverse: Reflecting on a Decade of Superheroes
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As we bid farewell to the Arrowverse, it's hard not to reflect on the decade-long journey that's shaped the superhero television landscape. Remember when Oliver Queen first donned the hood, igniting a universe that gave us unforgettable characters like Barry Allen, Kara Danvers, and Sara Lance? Join us as we reminisce about the evolution of these shows, the groundbreaking crossovers, and the emotional story arcs that kept us tuning in week after week. Rob and Court share their personal nostalgia and the impact these stories have had on their friendship, celebrating the legacy of the Arrowverse as "Superman & Lois" brings this era to a close. We also take time up top to discuss the return of Chris Evans to the MCU. Timecodes are provided if you want to skip around to your topic of choice! Thank you to everyone who continues to support and don’t forget to subscribe to download new episodes as they become available and don’t be afraid to share a rating!
0:00 Intro
02:00 Chris Evans to Return in Avengers: Doomsday
13:55 28 Years Later Trailer & Dune 2 Missing Out on Best Score Oscar
20:11 Jeremy Allen White in…Star Wars?
23:26 Austin Butler Is The American Psycho
26:30 The Sony Spider-Man Adjacent Universe is Dead
31:43 Eulogizing and Celebrating The Arrowverse/CW-Verse: Our Favorite Things
02:01:57 Signing Off!
Topic for Next Week: Superman and Lois Retrospective
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Speaker 1:My journey never ends.
Speaker 2:It's the Infinite. Podcast with Rob and Kork the Cube. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Project Infinite Podcast, the podcast covering the infinite and ever-expanding multiverse of fandom for movies, comics, tv shows, video games. We got you covered. I'm rob. I'm here, as always, with court, court. This episode, we knew, we knew it was coming. You knew this was coming, pete yep. Um, obviously, the ending of superman and lois has marked the end of dc comic tv network TV things, I guess Right, more commonly referred to as the Arrowverse or the CW-verse, you know, a long-running under-the-radar cinematic universe in its own right that had no right being as compelling and as awkward and as it was, all of the things.
Speaker 1:It was campy, yeah, but it was ende of the things. It was campy, yeah, but it was endearing and it was. It was tender at points. It was there were some wonderful highs, there were some extremely incredible lows, but at the end of the day, I mean, it's just, it's nostalgia done right, I think, is one way to put it I think it is it's, it's intimate character telling and storytelling at points too, like I'm not I'm not naive to the fact that I know what this universe is, but also the nostalgia is personal.
Speaker 1:Like this is like the Flash used to debut and like the Arrowverse used to debut, like right on my birthday, and I'll never forget because the Flash is my favorite DC character with Mr Miracle. Like I remember when that first season hit and I I already loved the Flash and then the show just comes out and I didn't watch Arrow at the point. It's like this serialized superhero television that was just running all throughout my whole late teens not my late teens, my early to mid-teens and to my mid twenties. This whole universe was running this whole time and it did such a great job.
Speaker 2:It did a really nice job too of evolving over time. I think DC got a little more confident in it as time went along.
Speaker 1:I mean you saw the confidence once we got to Crisis on Infinite Earths. You saw the confidence that they had.
Speaker 2:To the point where they let them do Superman on TV Supermanman, and they bought a dceu character as well yeah, so um, and did a really nice job, you know, evolving in terms of the universe and letting it become more super heroic. Obviously, you know arrow is extremely grounded. Um, and then once we'll talk I mean we'll talk about the introduction of barry allen and kind of what that meant for that universe as we get into it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, this episode is going to be kind of our eulogy, eulogizing of the Arrowverse, you know, our favorite moments, characters. It'll be a really kind of informal thing where we just reminisce on the good times and the bad times, yeah, and the confusing times.
Speaker 1:Somebody play the song from the end of Deadpool and Wolverine.
Speaker 2:Turn this on and the confusing times and everything in between, yep. But first we do have some news, starting with a bombshell, I guess, but also one we kind of saw coming, insofar as Chris Evans is coming back for Avengers Doomsday.
Speaker 1:I think the bombshell nature of that it it doesn't come from the fact that he's coming back. I think it's the nature of what she's coming back, because it's presumably as Captain America is. What the thought process is is that he will be Captain America once again. And I mean, I know we have similar thoughts. I don't know if they're the same exact thoughts, but we have very similar thoughts. I think it's going to be akin to how we thought about Robert Downey Jr coming back, as you know, as Doctor Doom, as Dr Doom, which is still polarizing, to say the least, and I know we have differing views on that alone. But how do you feel about this one?
Speaker 2:I mean it's less jarring than the Robert Downey Jr thing, because I feel like once the Robert Downey Jr thing happened, it felt like this moment was only a matter of time, whereas the Robert Downey Jr thing completely came out of left field, yeah, where nobody could have seen that coming Right. But once that domino fell, it felt like this was the next logical step Sure sure.
Speaker 2:So I'm not as jarred by it or as surprised, because now it feels like what they're trying to do and what they're setting up is taking shape a little bit with Avengers Doomsday.
Speaker 1:And, so far as I think, chris Evans is coming back. I think he's coming back as a variant, probably an evil variant of Captain America. All right, well, that's. The rumors are kind of circulating, as is that the OG Avengers will all come back and it's going to be some twisted version led by Dr Doom, which would be Robert Downey Jr, so has the face of Tony Stark. This twisted version of the Avengers, which it's an interesting concept, I mean, it has its positive and its negative. So I mean, if you just shoot down the list, obviously you just do Hydra, captain America. That's the one piece that we never saw. It makes the most sense Robert Downey Jr. Obviously he's going to be Dr Doom in this. We were kind of talking before. You do Thunderstrike as an option.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Thor's the only one that doesn't fit as neatly into this because Thor historically in the comics it's hard for him to be evil or being god of the god of thunder.
Speaker 1:I mean you can dip into the Donny Cates, the newer Thor run and you can make him. You can make him the Herald of Galactus, if you want, and just have it be an evil version of Thor. That's the Herald of Galactus, because Galactus is going to be in a movie before you get to this movie. That that's an option. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You could do Beta Ray Bill. You could do Donald Blake, because Donald Blake becomes evil in that Donny Cates run as well too. So you can kind of pull Thunderstrike is an easier one. Just have him have the Thunderstrike moniker, have him be Donald Blake, and then it's just an evil version of him no-transcript.
Speaker 2:Last week with dc, like have some fun, sure. Like make up, make like, if you want to put this evil avengers team together, like give them some like original backstories, right, who cares, it's a multiverse I like it it could be any variant you want.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be necessarily pulled from a comic book run, even though like it'd be cool to see. Like maestro hulk, yeah you know, in live action. But like it doesn't have to be maestro just because he's like the most famous evil version of hulk. Like you could do. You could do something else where, like a hulk that you know suppresses banner right and like he is just a monster. Like you could do that. Like there's a lot of cool things you could do.
Speaker 2:Like it doesn't necessarily have to be like a comic book accurate thing, right um but I do think the hydra captain america is coming just because I feel like it's something people have been wanting to see, sure, um, I think if chris evans was going to come back as captain america, I think he would want to do it differently.
Speaker 1:Obviously you're not going to do Johnny Storm until Secret Wars Again. If you're going to do that way, maybe have him play both.
Speaker 2:I think you could do that.
Speaker 1:Because Secret Wars. All bets are off. Once Secret Wars hits, I think Disney is going to give every single resource, they're going to make every single last call to every single last actor that has had the Marvel logo from the beginning of the time to the end of time on any sort of movie show, anything. Yep um on on my thoughts overall. I mean you know how I feel about this. You personally know how I feel about this. It's just I'm starting to get kind of sick of the, of the dis, like the dis illusion that these new avengers do not matter, like that's how it's starting to feel. It was like like these we don't care, like we got to get some money made and like, to the point, this is a business at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:I listened to Eric Kripke on the Script-A-Part podcast yesterday and I mean he was talking about it too. He was very transparent about it because I think he was talking about Huey and how Huey was like obviously he's Scottish in the or he's Irish or Scottish in the, in the Boys comic and by Simon Pegg. But they and he said I had to switch it because it was an American. You know, this is an American show and and Butcher already was British so he couldn't have two main leads. He's like I knew like they weren't, like that might not have sold the same way. So I'm not naive, like I know this is a business and I mean no Way Home is always my North Star for this of like that second half plays because of how incredible all those actors are, but there's glaring holes in that movie. Like there are very, very glaring holes and like nostalgia, only there's a whole Black Mirror episode about it. Nostalgia only takes you so far. It only takes you so far. And it's like a drug. Like it like it's a release of dopamine because this person's here. But like how much does this actually carry? Like, carry you.
Speaker 1:I mean you look at X-Men 97, something that like pulls organically. Obviously it's coming from an act, like a cartoon from the 90s, but like these are new, innovative stories that they were pulling on and like it's just great storytelling, like just straight up. I mean you look at some of Marvel's best. Like you look at Daredevil television show. Like it's just great storytelling, that's all it's relying on. It's just it's not relying on nostalgia, it's just relying on being good.
Speaker 1:It's just because I was flipping through some of the TV shows, some of the movies from after Phase 3, and it's just like Anthony Mackie's in nothing for how many years? Like he hasn't been in anything for three years. She-hulk's been by the wayside. I mean, we thought Amon Villani was going to be like their. You know, throw her in anything and get people excited, and just nothing. Like she's had one extra post-credits scene after the Marvels. Like those are only projects. Like it's just Chong Chi.
Speaker 1:Chong Chi might be the biggest one out of that whole thing, and I mean a movie that made money, a movie that was Reviewed well, reviewed well. A movie that invigorated a lot of like this, like need for hand-to-hand action in the new age of the MCU as well too. Like there were so many cool things, like you can look at Kate Bishop as well. But there's so many things where I'm feeling like these new Avengers had such a great way. Like obviously, ant-man and the Wasp or Ant-Man. Quantum Media has an overlayer over it. That's looming. That's that hurts them their brand going into these Avengers movies. But it's still Paul Rudd at the end of the day, you can still get him in there. Even Doctor Strange as well too. Even even Wanda, even Elizabeth Olsen as well too. The whole framework of the new Avengers feels so backburnered.
Speaker 2:And it culminates in this because someone made an interesting point. It's an observation that Avengers Endgame was the send-off for the original Avengers and we didn't even get another Avengers movie without those actors.
Speaker 1:And that's my thing, that's the big thing they're coming back for the next Avengers movie.
Speaker 1:We couldn't even go. And again, I I still think what you do is you switch secret invasion and, like you, you make secret invasion as big a deal as it is in the comics. Like you make the understanding like secret invasion is going to be this massive deal. Um, you can. What you can probably do is usurp the marvels for secret invasion instead. You can probably not make, you could probably not make one or two of those movies and make Secret Invasion instead.
Speaker 1:And like again, like I already talked about this, like the whole cell, this is your new Avengers. Half of this team is fake. Like half of these team isn't real. Anthony Mackie might be the only one that's real in here. That's the only one that's not a Skrull, and he has to figure this out. Like, imagine him taking the mantle of Captain America to the government, to the world, and now being the leader of the Avengers publicly and it's like, oh crap, like everything. Like this is the biggest failure I could have had. Like, and then he has to pick himself back up from that too. You do a Falcon in the Winter Soldier Season 2 or Captain American in the Winter Soldier Season 2 and have the fallout. Like there's so many routes you could have taken and obviously some things were unforeseen scene um but again, like even chadwick poseman's passing, you still made sure, like ryan coogler made sure he got you guys leticia right. Still didn't get used for anything like that's all I'm thinking. Like none of these characters seem to be cared about yeah, and I mean to.
Speaker 2:I mean to the black panther point. It almost feels like the black panther mythos is so separate now yeah, from all the other marvel stuff.
Speaker 1:Which is how ingrained was it before, like it was the backbone the first appearance of t'challa is in a captain america movie, and then the the success of black panther made the backdrop of infinity war wakanda.
Speaker 2:So that shows you everything you need to know black panther, I mean obviously black panther 2 had so many mitigating circumstances, but it just felt it just feels like now, like, and then going into black panther 3, like it just feels like that character in that corner of the Marvel Universe feels so sealed off, right, I guess the only tether to the greater Marvel Universe in that movie is Ironheart Sure, which we both feel was the most shoehorned in part of Black Panther 3.
Speaker 1:Oh that was definitely the ask from the studio, because they said we need to make sure, but then again, I don't know what the circumstances were. What was the rumor? The rumor that jonathan majors was supposed to be in ironheart, um, and then he was removed. Obviously, he was removed from ironheart, so that's why that move, or that's why that show took, because that show got made in what? 2021?
Speaker 1:like that show's been made for years I believe it was 2022, something like that two, three years later and now we're finally getting the show in 2025, like something probably happened where they had to completely shift the show yeah um, but yeah, I mean, obviously I'm not, I'm not again, I'm not naive to myself either, like, yeah, I'll take a bit in the step, like I will still, and the movie's gonna make a bajillion dollars, exactly, and that's and that's.
Speaker 2:I guess that's the ultimate counter to anything that we're saying is Spider-Man, the way home, made a billion dollars, right? Deadpool Wolverine made a billion dollars.
Speaker 1:Cause most people are not us. Like most people are not thinking. Most people want the other thing. They want to turn their brains off and like, hey, there's that person from my childhood or there's that person from the time of my life where these movies were were absolutely incredible. Like that's what they and I can't knock it, I just can't like. But these are just my own personal thoughts of like I don't. A part of me doesn't love it because, again, it's my whole bias is it's taking away from organic storytelling that the infinity saga was so reliant on.
Speaker 2:Yep, and I mean, at the end of the day, maybe maybe they'll get there, sure, Maybe we will segue in cleanly into to this. Um, but like I said, it's I just felt, I felt this was coming. Once the robbie downing junior thing will happen, like they're gonna figure out a way to get them all back, and that seems like where we're headed. Um, we got some, we got some cinema news, so we had a trailer for 28 years later, yeah, the, the sequel to 28 days later. Um, back we're back to our roots, back to our zombie roots. Is it too late? Is it too late for zombie things? No, no.
Speaker 1:I mean Never too late. And again, it's not the fact that it's too late, too early for zombie things, it just needs to be a well-made thing. I think that's what modern cinema, modern television, is starting to understand, and it's funny that we just talked about that for the biggest universe in Hollywood and now we're kind of flipping the point.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, all your favorites are back. Danny Boyle is back, alex Garland is back writing, cillian Murphy is going to be back and our original cinematographer, anthony Dodd-Mandel, is back. So the group is back together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, iphone 16, 15, 16s. They were shooting this on as well, too, which is obviously your move, gareth Edwards. Listen this on as well, too, which is obviously your move, gareth Edwards. Listen. Gareth Edwards should take a Super 8 film camera or Super 16 and just film a whole movie on it and just see how it goes. You've been challenged. You've been challenged, Gareth Edwards. Is Gareth Edwards like in our top 3 directors in this whole podcast? I love him. He's the man. He's awesome.
Speaker 2:I told you he's going to make Jurassic the next Jurassic Park. I said it was going to be an iPhone, but I guess he has to kiss you up the ante Right and Etch-a-Sketch.
Speaker 1:And Etch-a-Sketch would be crazy. Give me a Razor, give me a Motorola Razor, like the first one that had any sort of video capability, and we're going to make some cinema with it. Yeah, how does this look like dune 2? How did he, how did he get it to look that good? Um, but this trailer looked fun. Oh, it looks like I'm I'm excited for this. I'm really, I'm really in. I mean danny boyle, I mean he's, he's an award winner and how incredible. And I mean you want to talk, feel. And it was smart of him to put that opening clip in from the original movie as well, too. Like to just get people caught up, because how many zombie properties were in between? Oh, these two. So it was good to get people caught up, because how many zombie?
Speaker 1:properties were in between, oh, these two. So it was good to get people caught up immediately as well too. But again, it's just. This movie looks it looks incredible. I mean I, I'm such a big alex garland fan I feel like he can do no wrong. I know he made men, doesn't matter, he can do no wrong, but I mean this, just it looks it looks intriguing. Like it looks like this is gonna be like you know, your quasi horror thriller zombie. Like it. Just it looks like this tone is dialed in as well too. Yep, um, I think aaron taylor, johnson and ralph fines are going to be incredible as well. And then I think the I think the exclusion of killian murphy is is is coordinated. Like there's a reason he's not in this as well too.
Speaker 1:So I mean, I'm really looking forward to it. I'm I my attention you really do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm definitely in. And then. So Dune has been a talk of the town insofar as Denis Villeneuve was fighting vigorously yeah, he was as he should to allow the score, the Hans Zimmer score of Dune II, to be recognized and accepted for nomination at the Oscars, and he has been swiftly denied. So Dune II will not be eligible for Best Original Score at the Oscars due to much of the score being too similar to the first movie, and I don't think that's necessarily fair.
Speaker 1:No, no, I mean to be blunt. I think it's BS. I think it's complete and utter BS. I mean, I know you have to follow certain rules, but I mean you're usurping some absolutely incredible score pieces that were originated for this movie. I mean, the two specific ones that come to mind is the kiss, the ring right where Paul takes the throne over, and it's the ride into the end of the movie. I mean, that is just. That's one of those score pieces. When it starts to, you know, it starts to swell and it starts to crescendo. It's like one of the ones that will ring in my head. And like you want to talk about modern love stories, funny enough. Um, a time of quiet between the storms where, you know, paul and Johnny are falling in love with each other. Like that score piece was like like I remember that one was one of the first ones released and I was like I couldn't like this is like it was like the most beautiful thing you'd ever heard.
Speaker 2:And I'm like the fact that these things can't be considered because of a percentage rule is just I think it's absurd yeah, yeah, I think if they they wanted to you know they wanted to recognize dune for this like just say we're, we're judging it based on the new pieces, like it's still eligible, but we're, we're, we're going to look at. You know, if this thing is going to win, it's got to be judged on the new additions. Yeah, you know we're not going to judge it on on the stuff from the first movie.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I, and I mean, obviously there's been a lot of movies that I didn't see this year. I've been notoriously bad Towards the back half of the year this is usually where I start to cook, and I've been really bad. But I know, score-wise, like I don't think there's any sort of competition for this score. If this score was submitted there was no, there's no second movie that I can put my finger on that was even close to this Like this is. This would have been the clear winner for best original score. I mean and again, this is still an original score there's still so many pieces in here that are original. They're just remixed, and then there's still brand new score pieces in here.
Speaker 1:I just, I, I think it's just, it's a, it's a. It's such like a discredit to somebody that's been in this business for so long as well too, is what a bit of a slap in the face as well, too, of like, no, like it's too similar to your first one. So we don't think we can like this like. Come on, like that's. So you're robbing the award of somebody that's deserving of it. I mean, how many new pieces of technology and new pieces, the new instruments that they made and like they had to like, read, like, invent the way that music was made for the score like and you can't give it a best original score nomination, like that's yeah, it's ridiculous, yeah, it's silly, um, but what are you gonna do?
Speaker 1:it's, it's the 2024 or 2025 oscar best original score in my book and it always will be. I mean I, I think this movie is gonna. I think this movie is gonna rack up every conceivable technical award. Yeah, like there's there's nothing better technically this year. It is the best score of this year. It is the it's still. I need, I need to see a nora, because I believe that's the only one that's gonna be in contention with this.
Speaker 1:Um and huge shout out to sean baker. That's one of my favorite filmmakers. I mean he won sundance off an iphone, so shout out to him as well too. Shout out to danny boyle, shout out to sean baker. But I mean at the end of the day and I mean it's funny because I was looking because um, interstellar's back in theaters, the 70 millimeter and people you hear about the resales like people are reselling the tickets for like 215 bucks and like there's people coming around the corner be like, wait, is this one of the greatest movies? And court sitting in the back I like I've been trying to say this. It always has been. It always has been One of the greatest films that's ever been made. People were like they were obviously talking scale scope. And then Dune 2 came up and it was just like this is the best picture of this year. Like it, truthfully, is the best movie of this year. Yeah, timothee Chalamet could get two best actor noms in the same year.
Speaker 1:I've been hearing of some really good things about a complete unknown as well, too interesting, that'd be cool that would be really cool I don't think they would do that I don't think they're gonna give it to him for dune, unfortunately, even though I I believe that he put up. He put up some work. He staked his claim as one of the greatest young actors in hollywood yeah, um, speaking of best young actors in hollywood, jeremy allen white.
Speaker 2:Um, he's a great actor. He's one of best young actors in.
Speaker 1:Hollywood, Jeremy Allen White. He's a great actor. He's one of my favorite actors.
Speaker 2:But he's in Star Wars now.
Speaker 1:He is in Star Wars, but not in the way you think. Not in the way you think he could be like an edgy Jedi or like a general that's really stuck up, To quote the great Marvel poet Madison, not in the way you think it's not what you think. Put her in doomsday and secret wars. Yes, have her be the main character. I would love that. I would love the entire. They should do. They should make madison a watcher.
Speaker 2:They should make madison and louise watchers I want the entire marvel cinematic universe retold from madison's perspective. But anyway, jeremy allen white, um a surprise casting in this movie that was already finished. This movie's done already, but he's in it now. Yeah, the Mandalorian Grogu. He will appear as the son of Jabba the Hutt. Yeah, you couldn't have got anybody else to do this.
Speaker 1:Unless he loves Star Wars. That's what I said. Unless he just loves Star Wars. But I feel like he screams like broken jedi and you save him maybe for these new movies that you're gonna get. If you, yeah, why does? He's a busy guy. I also understand that job of the hutt's son well, and also also to that point, it's a voice role, like, yeah, he's just gonna put his like pajamas on and just go to the studio record and leave.
Speaker 2:He's gonna be like like you're not gonna know it's him unless you know it's him.
Speaker 1:Oh, but I made the point before we hopped on like the funniest variant of this is like, if he still has the same like, like tone is his voice from the bear, like it's the same thing as, like that would be the greatest that'd be worth it, actually just this edgy, like just this edgy, jabba's son, for no reason would be he's edgy edgy would be pretty good.
Speaker 2:I'd be pretty in on that, actually. But like, where is he coming? I don't know. There's so many questions because, like boba fett runs tattooing now, right, right. So like is he is he, are we supposed to root for him?
Speaker 1:I don't know what this movie is even about. He's coming back to claim why are they making this movie?
Speaker 2:why is this a?
Speaker 1:movie. This should have just been season four.
Speaker 2:And also the Mandalorian doesn't have shit to do with Tatooine.
Speaker 1:He was sitting on a bench outside of his house in the last movie. I don't know what this movie is supposed to be about.
Speaker 2:I know what it's supposed to be about, but I don't know how he fits in this, me neither. Move on.
Speaker 1:Remember when Boba Fett turned into the Mandalorian crazy I'm the main character now um american psycho news.
Speaker 2:Yes, um, so we have our american psycho, and it's austin butler outstanding pick.
Speaker 1:Pretty good, um, I know what the a lot of the a lot of the film. The film nerdies like me thought it was going to be jacob lordy, because I know he met with luca guadagnino also Also you called your shot on that and you were wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was wrong. And also huge shout out to Luca Guadagnino, because I mean you're talking about a filmmaker that was already in his what? Late 50s by the time. Call Me by your Name. Came out Early 50s, maybe Late 40s, early 50s, and like the work he's a second. Austin Butler was in three episodes of Arrow. Yeah, you don't remember? That was his boyfriend. That turned out to be working for the League of Assassins.
Speaker 2:Oh my.
Speaker 1:God, I did not know that. I thought you were the Arrow guy.
Speaker 2:I thought we broke this down. You're the Arrow guy and I'm the Flash guy. Yeah, but I didn't know that it was Austin Butler.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's when he had his super long hair.
Speaker 2:He wasn't an LSU.
Speaker 1:He wasn't a movie star yet, but now he is, and now that's why he's getting to play the new American Psycho.
Speaker 2:Arrow legend Arrow legend Austin Butler.
Speaker 1:Arrow was a gateway to superstardom. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:If we really want to talk, all right anyway.
Speaker 1:Incredible incredible pick. I mean, if you're somebody to play patrick bateman, I mean austin butler, as fade ralph had kind of cemented. That is like how incredible is this about to be?
Speaker 2:and I mean he's a space psycho and now he's an american psycho.
Speaker 1:I think the approach you do for this movie too is like you kind of pull from bones and all to be a little bit more. What's the word I'm looking for? It's a little bit more like melodic, if that's a good word to use like it's, like it's sublime. I think that's the best way to describe bones and all. It's like it's a sublime horror experience. I think that's the same approach you make for a movie like this, and again, like that tenderness that you throw on top of it. I think that's what a glue to luca guadagnino is, like one of his specialties, I mean what an?
Speaker 1:absolute, incredible filmmaker that that is. And over the last seven years like how many films has he made in the critically acclaimed like? Every single movie he makes is a hit. So, yeah, that's going to be, that's going to be something. Maybe it's probably going to get him another Oscar nomination and maybe a win.
Speaker 2:Hmm, and then everything, really fucking.
Speaker 1:Wow. Um, I personally remember cause I I do love air on, like you. I personally remember because I do love Arrow, unlike you.
Speaker 2:I just didn't register that it was him.
Speaker 1:That was Theo's boyfriend that turned out to be evil.
Speaker 2:I know the character, I know the character, but it didn't. It's him. He's too famous and he's him now. He's too famous to be that character in Arrow. So before we eulogize the Arrowverse, we have to actually eulogize the Sony Spider-Man weird spin-off universe. Where Arrowverse, we have to actually eulogize the Sony Spider-Man weird spin-off universe.
Speaker 1:Where's my Hypno-Hustler movie? We're never getting it.
Speaker 2:It's in the vault. Maybe he'll show up in Secret Wars. Yeah, so, coming off the back of this Kraven movie not being reviewed well, to the fact that nobody apparently showed up at the Kraven panel Like nobody, that's wild. Not even one guy reviewed well. To the fact that nobody apparently showed up at the craven panel at one of the yeah, like nobody, that's wild not even one guy.
Speaker 1:I would have gone if I was at like a comic con and I had some free time. I'm like, oh craven panel, I would have walked in. This is like a hollywood, budgeted movie like I'll be there.
Speaker 2:So off the bones of that and and all the negative reception, sony has decided we're done here, a decision that they should have made, admittedly, probably like five or six years ago they should have been like.
Speaker 1:We're only making venom movies.
Speaker 2:They probably should have made their decision right, but um, better better late than never, but never late is better. Um, yeah, so the sony universe is dead. Um, besides, venom is bulletproof to all of this, because it's of this they're the best movies ever so what is your favorite Sonyverse movie that's not a Venom movie?
Speaker 1:oh, it's Morbius. It's not even remotely close, it's Morbius having not seen Kraven yet, I'm going to say Kraven that's actually the best way to think about it, because Madam Web doesn't even deserve to even be on this. No, that's actually the best way to think about it, because madame webb doesn't even deserve to even be in on this.
Speaker 2:No no, um, what a ride don't do dumb things, says they really they really, dan. They really thought they had something with this. We're gonna do a whole universe without spider-man in it, okay, and guess what guys you got? You got what you deserved, um, so I'm glad it's dead come on man poor, poor michael keaton.
Speaker 2:The vulture is just stuck in limbo now. I think I saw someone say that off, he's, he's back. Like someone just officially said that he's back in the mcu now, like he just got back probably had something to do with spider-Man again. Probably had something to do with Morbius, though it's Morbentown. We're never going to see that Sinister Six movie, are we? We never were Rowert. Come on, man, you don't know what about El Muerto?
Speaker 1:Yeah, because what was the Sinister Six? Bad Bunny was going to be in it. Bad Bunny is El Muerto. You were going to have more, so you were gonna have donald glover as him what are you guys doing? Jared leto is morbius. What are we doing? Uh, aaron taylor, johnson is craven. Um, dakota johnson is madame webb. Madame webb and venom, I guess.
Speaker 2:No, I've been much funnier venom's like nah no, no, knowing that it would have been the sinister six fighting venom maybe a billion dollar movie.
Speaker 1:Venom's in it. Venom's in it, just beating the crap out of a bunch of people nobody cares about.
Speaker 2:See, when you say it like that, like it's the Suicide Squad, but Venom wins and he just kills them all.
Speaker 1:It's like if Starro won in the Suicide Squad.
Speaker 2:That'd actually be amazing. God, I'm available.
Speaker 1:I'm glad it's over. I'm available.
Speaker 2:Do the Cue the Deadpool Wolverine song For the Venom.
Speaker 1:That's our new thing. Just anytime, anything. The Sonyverse.
Speaker 2:Cue the thing, man. That was a long time coming. I can't believe they got this far and people still bought into this.
Speaker 1:It's Venom's fault that they got this far. It's true, it's Venom's fault, and the meme that Morbius became had a golden child of uh-oh. This thing is going to overstay its welcome by years.
Speaker 2:To be fair, I'll never forget when we saw Morbius in the first ten seconds.
Speaker 1:That might have been one of the greatest We've had. You know what was a funny movie watch we had in the theater? Funny enough, it was Matrix Resurrections. I don't know why. That was super fun. But that Morbius was, that was a golden. That was one of the best cinema watches, because we didn't. Any cinema etiquette was thrown out the window between the two of us. We didn't care at that. Hey pal, you look like you need a doctor.
Speaker 2:I am a doctor. I'll never forget. Rob looked over at me. He's like oh no bro, oh no, remember when they just blatantly ripped off the, the dark knight score yeah, that was crazy, that was insane what's going on there. I'm glad it's over. Can't wait. After Kraven comes out we'll do a Sony universe without Spider-Man retrospective.
Speaker 1:Venom's going to win every award.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Venom's disqualified. Come on, what are we even doing it for?
Speaker 2:The memes yeah, so we can talk about Matt Smith for half an hour. Yeah, get Matt Smith in an actual good Marvel thing. Yeah, make him Doctor Doom. Yeah, the MCU's Doctor Doom, like I've been saying, that would be great, god.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's still Game of Thrones, adjacent alums playing Reed and Victor. Yeah, also, did you see Pedro Pascal in the last few weeks? Yeah, I'm sorry y'all To anybody that was Henry Richards is going to slap hard. I don't remember if I was like immediately I wasn't against it, but I was just like look wise. And then I saw it. I was like, oh, shut up court.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was pretty in on it. Yeah, just because I enjoy his work.
Speaker 1:If you ever guys, ever find, when I was like maybe not.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm sold. You don't have to sell me anymore, but I'm sold.
Speaker 1:Oh I was going to. I fear Matt Shackman might have cooked Like I'm talking vehemently cooked on this one, because he probably didn't have to live within the confines of what the MCU superhero movies were doing. He might have just cooked something up, that's insane.
Speaker 2:Yep, I agree. All right, it's time it. I agree, alright, it's time. It's time you can't see us, but we have our Star Labs sweatshirts on. Yep, we're matching, we got our Star.
Speaker 1:Labs hoodies on Star Labs hoodies. I got the crew neck on. Yep, you got the original crew neck from. So, okay, can we talk about the number one? Unanswered questions that don't make any sense? We're going to do that now. No, we're just going to do get the crew necks from. Why did they have every size available, every size, what you need, like. What do you need? Are you like? Are you the villain or are you like the anti-hero of the week or like you? Are you like the person that like needs to be in here? Here's a star lab like. Why did everybody wake up in the star labs?
Speaker 1:complimentary star labs crew neck amazon when they saw that the star labs crew necks were in the show and the store started blowing up.
Speaker 2:Start printing me money. Harrison Wells Etsy store is going crazy, Blowing up man.
Speaker 1:Millions each year.
Speaker 2:But he didn't even need to be a scientist anymore. No, but the Arrowverse, the CWverse I guess we can just quick kind of Deadball era baseball homage to Smallville, yeah, kind of like that. I kind of like in this like blade with like superhero movies, it's kind of what really kicked it off, but doesn't. I mean, obviously Smallville has a massive following, but it ended in 2011, so it's kind of like the BC era DC superhero shows, you know. You know, serialized dctv, serialized superman, yeah, um tom welling, obviously we'll talk about tom welling in a little bit too. When we talk about christ on different earths. Um tom welling, obviously just incredible performance as as young clark kent. Um smallville ends with him becoming super proper and then you think, all right, that was cool, that's it.
Speaker 2:And then DC in 2012 comes out with Arrow, which we've talked about Arrow before. On one of these episodes we did a full Arrow retrospective. So Arrow comes out in 2012, obviously starring Stephen Amell as Oliver Queen. They do an Iron man with the character. Basically like we're just, we're gonna loosely do the green arrow, but we're gonna make them cool yeah, so let's talk about that real quick.
Speaker 1:So the approach happens um, you get stephen amell, this canadian actor that's been in what, like he's been in a little bit of the TV show thing.
Speaker 2:He did the CW UPN pipeline that all these guys do A little Law and Order.
Speaker 1:It's funny I just listen to, because I'm old now and all I do is listen to podcasts. I listen to the A24 podcast with Coleman Domingo and Sebastian Stan and they both talk about being on Law and Order for a little bit. So he did his thing. He was here, he was there. You bounce around television a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, did. A lot of you know rom-com TV, all that stuff. Blue Mountain State he was in for a couple episodes. Obviously did his NCIS.
Speaker 1:CSI vampire diaries all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Um new girl. He was in for a bit. So you know, typical CW good looking, short hair, blonde, hair blue eyes, it's your Alan Richen, yeah, variant yeah, so they get him.
Speaker 1:He's shirtless, yeah, all the time yeah, they emcee-ed him in season one of Arrow.
Speaker 2:They faced one and two emcee-ed him anytime they needed him on that salmon ladder. He was on it in season one well, that's when they didn't know.
Speaker 1:They knew, but they were like we need to make this edgy, it needs to be a CW teen drama. And then I can't wait until we start talking about the Flash. And then again it was the way that the superhero landscape overall was going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they were like wait a minute, can we just do superhero television.
Speaker 1:And then, yeah, and they were like, wait a minute, can we just do superhero television? And then he got better. Yeah, as an actor, I want to talk about that because there's two actors in that universe that got better, and it's tyler heckling and it's steven amell.
Speaker 2:There's two actors that literally we watched them get better.
Speaker 2:Yeah he got better. Um, the the chains kind of came off a little bit. The cw shows where they could do a little, a little bit more, a little bit more. Season two it goes. Season one is pretty grounded. Season two it goes full. Here's Deathstroke yeah, that was nuts. And then, obviously, season three. We get the backdoor intro. Grant Gustin shows up as Barry Allen and you're like you're the Flash from DC Comics or you will be. He gets struck by lightning at the end of arrow, at the end of that little mini crossover, and you're like are we? This was 2012. Like this is pre, like everybody knowing everything era, so like nobody really knew that the flash thing was coming. And then he got struck by lightning at the end of the episode. You're like are they waiting? Are they? Are they going to do the flash? Do we have the budget for that? Do we have the budget to do the flash? And they did have the budget Cause. Then we get the flash. Um, in 2014, grant Gustin, obviously starring as Barry Allen.
Speaker 1:Um, I'll never forget that first episode of the flash. I remember the anticipation was really good too. I remember like and like it and it's funny because once the season two. It's funny because this episode, even this episode of this podcast, is very near and dear, because a large part of our friendship is built upon the Arrowverse as well too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 1:I met you while the Arrowverse was prime running. There would even get times later we would watch episodes of the Arrowverse. This thing is so near and close to this.
Speaker 2:It's so near and close to us. And then you had to ask the question where, so where do they go from here? And then the cw had an answer. Right. They said what if we got all the weird characters together and made another show? You're like, can you do that? Legends, tomorrow is born. Um, it started it's.
Speaker 1:It started out kind of like a like a like a tried and true drama.
Speaker 2:Like it started out kind of like a tried and true drama. It started out as they were going to centralize it around Hawkman and Hawkgirl obviously Two pretty important DC characters, and then they were going to throw in a little Captain Cold in there. A little bit of Firestorm.
Speaker 1:Kind of like all these C-lists. It was like an amalgamation of, in my opinion, the Legion of Superheroes, the legion of superheroes and the suicide squad kind of mixed into, like its own team, yep um which the justice league. It was like the three of those teams mixed into one, which made sense.
Speaker 2:It was cool yeah, and then unfortunately for for that, not unfortunately for that show, because it worked out, but the lead actors of for hawkman and hawk girl just weren't there and I don't know if it's them or if it's the writing of those characters, and then that show kind of got. I mean, that show predictably got taken over by Wentworth Miller and Katie Lotz.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Rip Tyler as well too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Rip Hunter, yeah, or Rip Hunter, rip Hunter, yeah I forget the actor's name, but I mean, I was going to say, like most underrated character, it's him. For me it's Rip Hunter. He is just the actor himself. He's oozing charisma.
Speaker 2:He's absolutely incredible. Yeah, that was, and then.
Speaker 1:Supergirl. Cbs stepped in and said hey, obviously we can't get Superman but Supergirl on the table.
Speaker 2:And then they strike absolute gold with Melissaissa benoist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, just incredible supergirl yeah, it's something to say that your three lead actors for the three biggest shows that were like singular characters are, yeah, were that great and that synonymous with those characters as well too. And like it was to the point of, like I knew superman and lois and we'll talk about this. How like different it's not a like it doesn't, it's the most. This isn't a CW show, that and Stargirl. But you know, I was like longing for Melissa Benoist to show up in that last season, or even on like the flash forward for Superman and Lois Spoilers but I'm not going to say what happens with the flash forward. Like I was longing for her and be like Aunt Kara's back, I think that would have been pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Obviously, you get the massive which showed so much confidence. The CBS episode of Supergirl gets Grant Gustin to be in an episode of Supergirl and then you're like, whoa, are we doing this? Then Supergirl gets moved to the CW basically because of that, which paves the way for in season two of supergirl we get tyler hecklund um, as superman and we'll talk about that obviously is probably one of our spoiler alert. That is one of my favorite moments in the entire era versus tyler hecklund's first appearance superman.
Speaker 1:First episode of season two of supergirl, like I remember, they released like a mini clip from it and I was like like wait a minute. Is like is that Superman? Is that, is that Superman?
Speaker 2:Um, so yeah, legend, and then I didn't really, we didn't really finish our thought on legends tomorrow, where it devolves into just a slapstick comedy.
Speaker 1:Well, I want to talk about season two, cause I think season two and season three they understand. Especially season two, it starts to really understand like the tone of the show. But then that's a show that, like there's that each season is toned are massively different for whatever reason, but it does such a good, that show does such a good job of that it does, what all great comedy kind of shows you divulges into like a comedy, a comedy action at the end of the day, and then it it one of the best moments of any of the crossovers is the death of Martin Stein.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man and Crisis on Earth, exit.
Speaker 1:Man and Crisis on Earth Exit. That is my favorite crossover, I think. I think I agree with you. It is such a dialed-in crossover. It gives all the characters some shine.
Speaker 2:Everyone gets something to do it gets this big superhero lineup moment.
Speaker 1:That's probably the best one that we've gotten so far.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Legends of Samaro goes on for quite a while, Probably longer than anyone thought. And then 2018, you know again, CW's full steam ahead. They said who else can we do?
Speaker 1:We're going to go with Black Lightning, and you're like whoa Black Lightning said what if we spent 90% of the budget on music in the first three episodes? What are our thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:And once again, which is a through line of all of these shows you get an actor. You get an actor's actor to play your lead character, the job Cress Williams did as.
Speaker 1:Jefferson Pierce. Is it the voice, is it the presence?
Speaker 2:It's all of it, it's something so uncanny or not uncanny.
Speaker 1:There's something so like tried and true about crest williams's black light, and you know what's funny? He's so similar to barry in so many ways he's like a more.
Speaker 2:He's an older, more realized version of what barry could become, and I love the framing for the entire show that he was retired, like his heyday was past him, something we'd never seen before yep. And then he comes out of retirement to be black lightning again and you know, one of my favorite moments from that character is the crossover, obviously, when he finally joins the Arrowverse proper, oh man. And he has a couple of really great scenes with Grant Gustin, and then he has the amazing scene with Grant in the Elseworlds.
Speaker 1:Not Elseworlds In the year after Crisis.
Speaker 2:What was that? What was that event? The Flash.
Speaker 1:I forget what it was.
Speaker 2:It was after Crisis Despero comes in, oh yeah, and him and Grant have that amazing scene in their little Hall of Justice where he kind of gives them a pep talk, and I'm like wow. And then I guess the most maligned series of of all of this is batwoman. Um, it was their attempt at we're gonna do gotham, we're gonna do gotham city you're itching to do batman.
Speaker 1:But I, I guarantee, because I think the, I think the heads at warner brothers were like you, we gave you superman, you know they. That's when I think the preliminaries on the batman was working. Like ben affleck still technically he still was batman at that time like he still was batman yep, um. So they were like we were probably might have two batman running at the same, like we can't have a third batman for television. But again.
Speaker 2:You know, obviously it didn't work out, but they once again attached an a a list star to their main. They got ruby rose, which at the time I was like wow right, exactly they got ruby rose to do this right. That woman show right um. I thought she was pretty good I like that I like the edge that she brought to kate kane. Um, I liked her scenes with supergirl in the crossovers that's probably my favorite part and, unfortunately, ruby rose had a really horrifying experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it just makes me sick on those on that.
Speaker 2:On that set, um, just felt like kind of the wheels were falling off at that point, yeah, and they kind of stitched that show together and you know, she had a really horrific back injury, yeah. Um, on set of soup on, uh, on the set of bat woman, um, she gets replaced by javisca leslie, who takes over the bat woman mantle, but as ryan wilder, um, I enjoyed her bat woman.
Speaker 1:She actually was pretty solid and you have to work with what you have at that point when she's picking it up, and I think she did a pretty solid job. I can't really give any critiques or complaints. I think, for what she was given, that's not bad. That's actually pretty good.
Speaker 2:The Arrowverse got so popular at one point that Matt what the heck is his name that plays Constantine. Oh, at one point that, um, matt uh, what the heck is his name? That plays constantine. Oh, matt ryan. Matt ryan came back, got resurrected. Constantine's another one of those bc before before, before cw era, constant, the constantine show on upn um, and they seamlessly wove constantine into the era of earth's canon.
Speaker 1:He was kind of like dr strange is in the mcu, like he was the magic person that like multiple shows were going to him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one of the cool things about you know, obviously season 4 of Arrow isn't great, but when Constantine showed up I was like, oh shoot. And Matt Ryan synonymous with Constantine I mean he voices him in the animated series obviously has portrayed him in several TV shows now. Um, so, matt Ryan, it was cool that he came back and the Arrowverse popularized the art of the crossover. Yeah, man. Starting small with, obviously, the Arrow Flash crossovers, got bigger with the Legends of Tomorrow crossovers. Then they just got insane.
Speaker 1:When you're talking about Elseworlds, when you're talking about Crisis on Earth X, when you're talking about the invasion crossover and the point I want to make about how incredible that this is and like how I can't overstate the logistical nightmare that television is, because when you talk television and I don't think a lot of people realize this when you talk about a film, that's it, it's your movie television. A lot of the times is written as the season is going on. You're writing these, so the fact that they could pre-vis, they can like pre-plan, all of these things, like the logistical nightmare to probably get flash and arrow together, was probably a nightmare you talk about once you get into crisis on earth, once you get into um, into invasion. The fact that they got everybody together for all those crossovers is just incredible, like it is an incredible feat that they did that together for all those crossovers is just incredible. It is an incredible feat that they did that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then I mean Christ on Infinite Earths is obviously what everything was built into and it's where they just did.
Speaker 1:Did it before any movie did. And these DC characters have been around for how long? And they did it before any movie could. That says everything.
Speaker 2:They took every swing.
Speaker 2:And you can say whatever you want about Christ on Earth, but at the end of the day, they gave us just moments that, like you never thought you'd see, um, you got. I mean, burt Ward came back as Dick Grayson for like a smidge. They're like they paid, and that's something that Arrowverse doesn't get enough credit for properly kind of paying homage to everything that came before it, of credit for properly kind of paying homage to everything that came before it. Whether it's oh, yeah, oh, whether it's bringing john wesley ship in to portray barry allen's father, later have him portray jay garrick and then ultimately have him reprise his role as barry allen later on, um, whether it's bringing linda carter in to to be the, the president of the united states and supergirl what I want to even go farther with that.
Speaker 1:To say is like this universe that so many people say is stupid. That's always going to be. My counterpoint is like these actors that were in these things like had so much trust and like there's so much like reverence for it and like people are like the creatives on there were like no, we're going to make sure, like you guys, are done justice.
Speaker 2:They let Brandon Routh be Superman again. Yeah incredibly so he came back as superman. They gave us kevin conroy, yeah they bought bruce wayne.
Speaker 1:They bought back, um, they bought back the lois lane actress to play cara's mother, like yeah, so many pieces were moving, to make sure they gave us they finally gave us kevin conroy as batman right and obviously you know, wasn't the type of batman that people wanted him to be like.
Speaker 2:He ended up being evil.
Speaker 2:King and kingdom come batman but, like still, you got to hear kevin conroy do bruce wayne in live action, right, and I just I remember specifically when they cast him, I could not wait for that episode.
Speaker 2:And then when you hear the voice you know off screen, like you hear him talk to kate for the first time and you're just like that's bat dude, like regardless of how the storyline ends up, like he still got to be Batman in live action, um, and it was awesome, um, all the way you know, and comes all the. It comes all the way back to Smallville, as as Tom Welling ultimately comes back also in Christ on infinite earth says, as Clark Kent Um, awesome, awesome, back also in christ on infinite earths. As as clark kent um, awesome, awesome, awesome stuff. Um, and then obviously superman and lois you know being the ending of it, um, you know the work that that entire cast and crew did, um, and just unabashedly being superman, like from tone to mannerisms, to everything and it's such a different approach to Superman, which I think it's something that we hadn't seen ever before in live-action.
Speaker 1:It's just one simple thing Give him kids.
Speaker 2:Kind of like the Black Lightning thing. Have him a little further removed from being new. Have him just be Superman.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we didn't talk about Stargirl yet. Hbo stepped in and was just like, hey, we'll take some, we'll take some stuff, and I think they did that after crisis.
Speaker 2:They were like, wait a minute, we might be able to invest into these shows and with star girl, again, they followed the same pattern, like they got this actress who can just galvanize an entire show and that's what they got with breck messenger, like she's, she was tremendous to the point where I'm putting my rankings in the head star girl is high on that list.
Speaker 1:It's the miss marvel, for when we were talking about the shows, it's the one that like I wasn't expecting that yeah.
Speaker 2:So I mean, all that being said, um, let's just uh, let's just start. Let's just start talking some moments and characters and yeah you want to?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you want to volley some moments? Yeah, I mean, who's your guy, gal or other in the DC in the Arrowverse? I mean I know who it is, yeah it's Oliver Queen.
Speaker 2:There's just something I don't know. Just I loves not just the arc of that character but obviously steven amell's portrayal of him. But he brought when you got to the crossovers there was this gravitas that oliver had he's batman.
Speaker 1:He was fine, he was like he was the. He was the one that, like every, and he even says, like you guys all have powers, I, I don't, but you still will listen to me.
Speaker 2:I just remember the Invasion crossover. When they're all together and Sisko, they're arguing back and forth, they're like we need a leader whatever. And Sisko goes well. I trust Oliver.
Speaker 1:Obviously he's having a tiff with Barry, and again that goes to this universe of these crossovers. They still have to navigate their own show's current story. That was going on and they bleed them into the crossover as well.
Speaker 2:But yeah, oliver Queen, it was always like the thing, like he had this like calming presence and then, ultimately, when he dies in Crisis, you're like that's like I'm superman's there and it still felt like they killed superman. I'm like man, he can't actually be gone right like this, like that's not, that can't. That's oliver queen man to the point where, like when he comes back in the flash, that last season of flash, when he came back, it was the greatest thing ever, like he played all the hits, you know. So for me, for me it's oliver like and you know stephen amell's portrayal and wow, harrison ford just showed up.
Speaker 1:I just was gonna say the exact same thing. I was just thinking. We both have the game awards up right now and everybody's freaking out because harrison ford just walked out. That's incredible. Um, wow, all the last of us live action actors are there.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Besides Pedro Interesting.
Speaker 2:But yeah, Stephen Amell man, his ascent from CW, good looking guy to bona fide like actual actor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to the point where, like Netflix, gave him a show with his cousin, which was pretty cool yeah.
Speaker 2:He played Firestorm, which is pretty cool. So for me yeah, for me it's Oliver.
Speaker 1:And then for you, I mean you can just say it's barry allen. I mean it's funny, like I don't know, and even like even our relationship is like this, which I think is the funniest thing ever. Yeah, like this is a very oliver barry relationship too. Like I mean you want to talk about like just like a sweet man, you know what I mean. Like just like a sweet man, you know what I mean. Like just like a sweet person, a sweet presence, and like he was the hope, like he was the whole part of this universe and like they were Batman and Superman, like he was the whole part.
Speaker 1:And like you want to talk about Grant Gustin, like we talk about the Stephen Amell thing of. Like he molded himself, like Grant Gustin walked in being a good, really good actor. Like he walked in being a really good actor, he walked in somebody you can root for week in, week out. And like again, you want to talk like your Christopher Reeves is like your people that are like you know they have that feeling of like there's more. I feel like Grant Gustin also had that bit of more, like he had that angst early in season one, but like once he faded away from that. And like especially you get into season two, season three, like for as whatever happens on the later seasons of the Flash, like one shining piece to hold through was Grant Gustin.
Speaker 1:It's always him and like, even like because this is just development in general in life like even Grant Gustin still got better, Like he still got. And then, like you know, you change his character, you give his character some children as well too. Like he turned into that father, like but I can't say enough great things about Grant Gustin and like how much of like a backbone he is to this universe of like I get again like he's the perfect inverse to Oliver, like he is like this hopeful, you know, somewhat happy-go-lucky, like this, like triumphant character, I think is the best thing to describe him. And it's just and like. The Flash was already one of my favorite comic book characters as well too, and you know this absolute hit that they came out with like. I remember like we always talk about it this way, like when normal, like when regular people that like aren't obsessed with this are like week in, week out talking about did you watch the Flash, did you watch it? That's when I knew this universe had some.
Speaker 2:It shows you, that's not a birthmark cole no, come on, man, that guy's also in the cw he is, he's jimmy olsen.
Speaker 2:He's james olsen. Yeah, my bad, he's too cool to be jimmy olsen. Um, yeah, so I'll. I mean oliver and barry, obviously easy ones. Um, just a couple, I guess a couple I also want to highlight um wentworth miller, yeah, as captain cold, just kind of like your Grant Gustin thing. Just stepped on set and you're like wait, is he the best actor on the planet? Understood the assignment of playing Captain Cold but also giving that character a little oomph, which culminates in Legend Season 1, which is obviously his finest hour as Captain Cold. There are no strings on me. I mean, granted, they tried the guy and gal relationship with him and Sarah and just didn't work.
Speaker 1:I mean I'll throw it over to the villain side. I mean I just want to. I mean I'll let you take the arrow and I'll take the flash one if you want unless you want to switch actually, I'll take the arrow and you take the flash one.
Speaker 1:I'll take the Flash one if you want, unless you want to switch. Actually, I'll take the Arrow one, you take the Flash one because he turned out to be the ultimate villain of this entire universe. But I mean, I'll talk Manu Bennett for a second. You want to talk like somebody that? Because Malcolm Merlyn, the actor John Bowerman, yeah. John Bowerman. Like incredible.
Speaker 2:Oh, we love John.
Speaker 1:Bowerman, one of those situations where he's like a Loki, like he's going to be in this for a while. Like you don't have to worry about him leaving. But Manu Bennett man, when he stepped in, like you want to talk immediately, raising stakes and a reason immediately like for a season two to be so. Like cause a lot of times this will happen in shows. Like the season two is like might get a little comfortable.
Speaker 2:Like you that was like an absolute kick drive, so and it was to the point where, like manda bennett, we're like, is he actually are we, are they just gonna do deathstroke? And then he showed up in the full gear and you're like, oh, shoot, um. But yeah, I mean, you're not gonna be able to look past any villain on this in this arrowverse and not talk about tom cavanaugh yeah yeah, go off, go off, man.
Speaker 2:Um, I would say tom cavanaugh and matt letcher, to be honest with you, like, just the concept and character and execution of the reverse flash, um in the arrow verse has, was nothing short of just absolutely remarkable. Um, that, reveal the man in the yellow suit, reveal merry christmas, yep. Um, everything about reverse flash was just expertly handled. Um, and he got. He got a little campy at the end.
Speaker 1:Everybody gets campy in this universe. Even Oliver does. Everybody, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everyone gets. He got a little campy at the end but still, anytime again, it was anytime. He spoke. You, you heard it. Um, and yeah, I mean just the reverse flash. That first season of the flash is built upon, it's really just built upon, the relationship between Barry and Wells.
Speaker 1:Why did you kill my mother?
Speaker 2:Because I hate you Dog. Oh, new Witcher game Sick. Yeah, yeah, I was just there, it is. But yeah, I mean the reverse flash and you know it's a when you go down the list of those Arrowverse villains.
Speaker 1:It's a, it's a deep, it's a deep sleep, damn man, a lot of them. They keep alive too, which I appreciate they keep a lot of them alive like you're talking about Deathstroke.
Speaker 2:You're talking about Merlin.
Speaker 1:Tobias Whale if you want to dip there. Tobias Whale's a tremendous oh, you want to talk about underrated. What icicle you can throw in there from stargirl as well? Well too, icicle was a, he was a problem a bona fide lunatic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, he was. But um, tobias whale is a great one, I mean a villain so good they just used him for the entire run of black lightning.
Speaker 1:However absurd that the scenarios became, he just was a constant um prometheus talk about.
Speaker 2:Talk about this was what this arrowverse did so well, they took these characters that no one had heard of or gave a shit about and they made them just incredible either heroes or villains. Prometheus is probably the best example of that. Prometheus is this d-tier, e-tier batman villain, um, who's kind of sort of a dark reflection of batman, but not really. Yeah, um, that's kind of like his backstory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because what is what is he big he's? I think he's pretty big in the, uh, in the grant morrison run of batman, but like nobody's thinking about prometheus, but then, um, I always forget what's the actor's name. Um steps in as well too. And oh, you want to talk about one of the best bait and switches as well too. You just think. You just know he's vigilante because, again, adrian chase yeah adrian chase, like you just know he's vigilante.
Speaker 1:You dip into the comics like is, this is the area? You just hop on. You go on google like who is adrian chase? That's vigilante, and they kept intercutting him with vigilante. They make it a point I think it's like the sixth or seventh episode, I'm pretty sure, where it's literally like he's got to go. Vigilante immediately shows up and you're like all right, just oliver and the team are the only ones that don't know he's vigilante. Like everybody knows it's him. And then the bait and switch to make him prometheus, like it's to the point where, like he showed up in in she hulk, we couldn't trust he showed up and he's, he's an abed el. I can't trust him. I can never trust him, ever again. Um, tremendous villain, oh my god. Um, reinvigorated arrow, because, arrow all intensive purposes was about to die, like that show was. Like might not have recovered from that season four, yeah, season five of arrow got arrow.
Speaker 2:It's happy ending, yeah essentially yeah, um, got us to cry, son. And for there's got us, you know, three more seasons of arrow, which is built on the back of josh cigar's performance as prometheus and and steven amell's counter performance as all of which I think, I still think. I think season five of arrow is the best.
Speaker 1:Probably he was, yeah, yeah because, finally, this is the actor I wanted to and I liked it.
Speaker 2:man um, trying to think of other villains, I mean Supergirl villains, I think are probably the weakest.
Speaker 1:Sure, but I still have a lot of mental capacity. It's held for Reign in season three. I think that was probably the most. I think it was the most personal, technically personal villain that she'd had to her as well, too, I think she was pretty. Yep, she's the most memorable, my opinion. I don't think maxwell lord, or I forget, um, it's her. Who is it? It's her aunt or whatever is the villain of season one.
Speaker 1:I forget what it is but um, I think rain is the one that was like the most personal stake. You like rooting for her a bit as well too. I always like to say that's one of the best dog walk like. So this is how the arrow verse is set up the penultimate, you do the crossover in the episode eight and then the episode nine is the mid-season finale for before the winter break, and that's when you dog walk the hero and you want to talk about rain, dog walking, supergirl, throughout this, throughout. Um, what city were they in? They were in national city, national city. Yeah, dog walked her through national city. I was like now, that's how you, that's how you go into a mid-season finale yeah, yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, we can talk about our favorite dog walkings real quick.
Speaker 1:Oh, I mean, I know what my number one will always be.
Speaker 2:It's when.
Speaker 1:Zoom just demolished Barry To the point where Barry's speed wasn't even gone. He was just like I can't walk anymore. He's like Barry, you're here. He's like I don't want to be. That was bad. That was bad.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Zoom.
Speaker 1:Man Zoom Teddy, Sears man Teddy.
Speaker 2:Sears and Tony Todd, tony Todd.
Speaker 1:Oh, RIP Tony Todd who did the voice.
Speaker 2:Who did the voice of Zoom proper when he was masked up? Yeah, I mean, oliver got kicked a few times. I mean the Ra's al Ghul one is pretty notable, yep, because again Oliver had that aura of invincibility about him, like, even though he was human, like even though he was a human man, um, he had that aura of invincibility about him, like he can't lose a fight, like a hand to hand, like, yeah, the dark archer kicked him a bit but he recovered. Um, and then raz al ghul just straight up, kills him and you're like wait a second. Stabbed him straight up, kills him, and you're like wait a second. Stabbed him, kicked him off a mountain, and you're like it's traumatizing. You're like wait a second. And then I mean Legends of Tomorrow never really had that. I mean the Legion of Doom pretty much does it.
Speaker 2:But Legends again was a little more lighthearted, so like they never really get, except for season one. Vandal Savage does it. But legends again was a little more light-hearted, so like, yeah, they never really get, except for season one. Vandal savage yeah, is that a laser gun? That's the best arrowverse moment actually. Um, I'm trying to think of other villains the thinker um great performance.
Speaker 1:I do agree with that just poorly executed, yeah, especially once you it's so tough to write the smartest character in the room characters, because the writers also need to.
Speaker 2:Especially once you lose the actor. They subbed him out at the end of the season for the. What's the character's name? The elastic guy. What is his name?
Speaker 1:Oh, what's his name that got removed from the universe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he becomes the stand-in for the thinker, the elongated man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he did me ralph did me. That's it, oh no, from soft game sick um, this is gonna be what the last few minutes of this is. We're just gonna interject um, interject some game award stuff into this, yeah trying to figure out what this is.
Speaker 2:It's not bloodborne, it is from soft, though. Is it another dark souls game? Hmm, hmm, it's looking very dark souls. He, I'll see what happens in. The title card pops up Um man, what was I talking about? Oh, the thinker. Yeah, who else was villains? Godspeed? I remember being really cool. We were really hyped for Godspeed and it just didn't. Disappointment, big disappointment for Godspeed.
Speaker 1:I mean you want to talk about John Cryer as Lex Luthor and then subsequently Michael?
Speaker 2:Kudlitz yeah.
Speaker 1:And two very different, but two very really good performances I like the Cryer performance as the businessman. Lex Luthor and he's the CW one, but then you get into the Superman one. That's like a little Kudlitz, when this final season when he becomes like lex luther, like proper, and he like shaves his head, shaves the beard. They do such a good role into it as well too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're like, oh shit, yeah like that oh, this is super, wait a minute. Um, yeah, cutlets, his performance is on, just he's on another level.
Speaker 1:Man, it's tremendous because this is the lex luther that's finding like I. I don't sick of this I'm sick of like, I'm sick of super, I'm sick of this I'm sick of. Superman, I'm not businessmanning, I'm not CEOing, I'm not power suiting. Let's fight. I'm ruining your whole life. Let's just fight and I'm going to give you the worst thing ever. I'm taking down Superman and I'm taking down Lois Lane.
Speaker 2:Yep, which is a great take on it. Any other characters you want to talk about?
Speaker 1:I mean the last one, um, before maybe we just get out some awards, we can just get through some awards is it's tyler hecklin as superman? That's the last one. I really just want to like, yeah, highlight and talk about. I mean he really you want to talk about like the closer in baseball, like he was the closer in baseball that came in and shut the game down. Unbelievable that that first episode he shows up in supergirl.
Speaker 1:That I'll never forget that feeling, like I. There was a feeling that I can't put into words you could tell right away.
Speaker 2:You can tell right away that he just got it, and I mean I mean the world now oh no, it's another elden ring dlc.
Speaker 1:No, rob's not gonna sleep for years now man this is crazy. Oh no, I should have known by the frame rate too, because the frame rate was very Elden Ring-y.
Speaker 2:But I didn't put two and two together. Man Game of the Year 2026?.
Speaker 1:Night Rain.
Speaker 2:Another Elden Ring DLC. All right. Tyler Hoechlin man, yeah. When he shows up that first episode of Supergirl and just him on the phone with Perry White, he's like yes, mr White.
Speaker 1:Right, yep, I understand Mr White, yes, he said. Well, actually, mr, I said wait a minute, like wait a second, and then he looks at the app and you're like wait, wait a second.
Speaker 2:And then he shows up when he does that first crossover and he confronts Deegan Evil, superman.
Speaker 1:He's like hi, yeah, and he looks he goes nice suit. I'm like no, he gets it, he gets it, he gets it, he gets it, he gets it. But then super superman and lois gets announced and you're like okay, another cw show. And this is like, this is where the cw, the cracks were really starting.
Speaker 2:final fantasy oh, it's the pc version of rayburn oh okay.
Speaker 1:Um, this is where the this is where the cracks were becoming ever so apparent. Improved lighting, thank you, thank you. Thank you, pc. Um, this is where the cracks were starting to become quite glaring, but then hbo becoming ever so apparent. Improved lighting, thank you, keep going, keep going. Thank you, pc. This is where the cracks were starting to become quite glaring, but then HBO was like we'll help out a bit. Yeah, here's some HBO money. That first episode like I can show that pilot of Superman. I remember, I remember this is funny my father was home and we watched the pilot and he was like wow, that was actually really good. Like it was like a mini movie. You get moved by it From the jump. Yeah, because they hit. You understand, this is an older Superman. He's not old, but he's a little older. Like you bring all your Smallville classics Lana Lang Obviously Lois is with him and this is a family drama. Like they built a family drama with hbo's money for the cw and that first episode is like the perfect chef's kiss.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when he reveals himself to his sons, like the acting. You just feel you like, you just feel moments in that show in ways that that you just don't. There's actual cinema in this show. Oh yeah, oh, my god, yeah, um, but man, that's just the moments. Quiet moments in the show are incredible. Um, the family drama isn't greeting, no, which I think is super important, especially for like these cw shows where we'll talk about, like you know, stuff that didn't work and I think a lot of the teen kind of drama doesn't, doesn't land for me. But the superman and lois there's a maturity to the drama that feels real, like, from whether it's jordan having like anxiety that feels real. You know what I mean to like. I mean all the stuff in season three with lois and the cancer, and what season I mean we'll talk. Obviously I don't want this to devolve into the superman lois podcast, but that season three, the idea of lois having cancer and it being the one thing that superman can't save her from so much.
Speaker 1:I love it.
Speaker 2:I mean, obviously I hate it, and how like and how you see the struggle in him, the whole season of being like man that, that that scene where he's talking to that other woman that has cancer, and I'm like we don't deserve this show because she has no idea. Obviously she has no idea that she's talking to literal Superman, who's another cat game.
Speaker 1:You could never be stray maybe we'll do a stray crossover but yeah, man god, tyler Hoechlin.
Speaker 2:Alright, let's give out some awards, yeah yeah, let's go.
Speaker 1:Let's go through our tier list. Um, do you want to do the universe specific ones or do you want to roll through ours first?
Speaker 2:we'll roll through ours first, I guess through ours.
Speaker 1:First, let's talk some, let's give some awards out. We haven't done this in a while. I don't know, because we didn't do it for gladiator we did not do it for gladiator just give denzel all the awards yeah, yeah, denzel actually, denzel actually didn't have to work for any of the awards.
Speaker 2:Whatever movie you reviewed before gladiator didn't deserve them is what the consensus I came to was. I don't remember what movie that was no, we did before gladiator.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what did we do before gladiator?
Speaker 2:I don't know, but I remember specifically we're not giving awards because they don't. It didn't deserve it. What movie could it have been that we hated that much?
Speaker 1:No, we didn't hate the movie, did we? Or did we just not need to give out awards for this movie?
Speaker 2:No see, now you're making me want to look it up.
Speaker 1:See, we're so famous now where we can't even remember the episodes that we're doing.
Speaker 2:Whatever movie, oh Joker, yeah, that's right, it was Joker 2.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right, no awards. You're right, no awards for you.
Speaker 2:Joker too um I won't, let's, let's just let's run through all these best cinema moment in the arrow verse yeah, man, it's gonna be hard not to see superman and lois, right, sure, yeah, I mean, um, I specific, specific cinema moment, huh, I, you know what I'm gonna say. It's the the runawayinosaur episode of the Flash.
Speaker 1:I fear that the Flash is going to own a lot of the most emotional moments. The Flash- might take the reins on that one, Because that is just Ooh. I'm glad you said that one. You know which one I'm going to use. I can't remember if it was the Flash episode or the Legends episode, but the one with Captain Cold and his younger self, I think that was the Legends episode. It was the Legends episode. Man, oh man, out of a season one to start attacking like that well, that's you know.
Speaker 2:They had so much confidence in Wentworth Miller to be like this is it's supposed to be a show about Hawkman and Hawkgirl, but Captain Cold and White Canary are the actual main characters of the show. And that episode, yeah, when he goes back and he gives his younger self a pep talk, basically saying like, hey, it's going to be all right, yeah. Like be there for your sister and it's going to be all right. And he just kind of like I'm like oh shit, went. I'm like oh shit, wentworth Miller, you're doing the acting Wentworth.
Speaker 1:Miller, best actor to join the franchise.
Speaker 2:Ooh, I mean, how deep can we go, whatever you want, because obviously Grant Gustin We'll talk after or do you want to talk like supporting character, basically? We'll do supporting character. This might be controversial, given you know my stance on this character's relationships. I'm going to say Emily Bette Rickards as Felicity. Okay, I think she's a genuine injection of those first few seasons of Arrow before, like, the Olicity drama takes over the show. She's a legitimate injection of like this character's awesome Like for this show.
Speaker 2:That's good. He needs her in this show. He bounces off of Diggle, but they have a different relationship, sure, whereas Felicity comes in and she's just like this. She belongs in the Flash universe, but she's stuck in the Arrow universe and I feel like that was always the best thing for her until she took over the show. Yeah, in seasons four and onward.
Speaker 1:That's good. I'm going to think 2020 Vision. It's Brandon Routh. 2020 Vision, thinking all the way through and to culminate, to finally get the Getting him back as Superman.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of people that you could pick for this, to be honest with you. I mean into the Arrowverse proper, like Chris Williams when they brought him in for Black Lightning immediate.
Speaker 1:I can go to Beck Bresinger as well and say the same exact thing. It's the same concept. Like this universe legends is the only one we won't use for this, but each of the main characters for every single show, every single last one of them hit. Yeah, every single last one of them yeah um favorite side character. Uh, three, two, one jesse l martin yeah, joe west.
Speaker 2:Um, this is a great category for this universe, in particular because there are a well, they built a whole tv show around side characters.
Speaker 1:Yep, I mean, you know what I'll remix. It's gonna be, it's gonna be martin stein. You know, I'm gonna save that one. Actually, I'm gonna save that one.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna stick with joe west and I'm gonna save jesse l martin's great, I mean again one of those like steady hands, reliable. We're getting an actor's actor on set, someone who's done he did a bajillion seasons of law and order um, we're sliding him into the detective role like he's gonna, he's gonna crush it and then he's just gonna that. Joe west's dad, dad wisdom, yeah, that he's just famous for.
Speaker 1:Jesse L Martin.
Speaker 2:If I had to pick a different one that wasn't Jesse L Martin. Man, it's tough. I'm going to say I might go to Black Lightning on this one and say James Remar, that's actually pretty good, Similar to the Jesse L Martin thing. Obviously you have Cress Williams already, but you're going to bring in another actor's actor.
Speaker 1:To to that point. For that character, you have to have a little bit more of something, because you have to counter chris williams at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:Like you need, like you need, instead of like a, instead of like a felicity or a cisco, you need like an alfred right for black lightning, and that's, they got that what jay did? Yeah, he's like he's like alfred for black lightning, like right, which I thought was really a really inspired and again kind of like surprising casting that like damn they got. Like james remar, I'm for the cw, cw, james remar, what are you doing?
Speaker 1:um, oh, the saddest moment all start. It's easily when Barry goes back in the Splash, season 1, and he can't save his mother. He's like it's your Barry mom and she's just like I don't understand. He's like, wait, barry, and she realizes that it's actually him. I don't even want to think about it anymore. The.
Speaker 2:Flash has two of those. It's that and it's the death of his father, which is man. Oh god, I can't. I can't.
Speaker 1:I'm a jurist man. It's the death of his father which is man man. Oh God, I can't, I can't, man, I can't, I can't.
Speaker 2:What's yours, man? It's the death of Martin Stein. Man. Talk about something that you just didn't see coming Like at all. Mm-hmm, you're like you can't kill a legend Like they're the fun, yeah they're the fun ones. They're the fun, whimsical ones. Like you can't and like that moment, like when they're split and Stein gets shot, your heart drops and you just realize like there's no way out of this, like he's going to die, and he starts telling Jefferson about like his daughter like that he just established this relationship with and it's in a crossover of all things.
Speaker 2:so you're like they're all gonna make it like the crossovers, like this, like the you know it's the fun, it's the comic book thing like they're gonna all team up and have a fun adventure and beat the bad guy and all go their separate ways and go their separate ways. Like no one's actually supposed to die in these things, I think. Granted, oliver dies in christ on infinite earth that was pre-planned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you knew that was coming like yeah, you knew you didn't know it was gonna happen, the first episode of christ's son of the earth. But man, martin stein thing and victor garber again your cinema's victor garber like actor's actor like brought so much gravitas to that martin stein role from when he first shows up as as the professor martin stein and then he's him and he has two. He obviously is with Robbie and Mel the first time and then obviously hits his stride with Fran's drama as Jefferson Jackson and Firestorm is incredible. I love that character and both those actors bring so much to the role. But the death of Martin Stein like that hit me, like that hurt, Like that one hurt uh.
Speaker 1:Best relationship it's martin stein and and jackson yeah, that's, that's the one. That's why I specifically saved that one. That is the best relationship. And then it's maybe not, but for me it is, it's so good man I can just spitball these. I mean I can go superman lo. Yep, that's a big one. I can do Jonathan and Jordan as well too. They have a pretty special relationship as well too.
Speaker 2:Oliver and.
Speaker 1:Dig, oliver, and Dig, that's one of the first inceptors of this entire thing. You can go Black Lightning and his daughters on top of that too. You have so many different ones you can pull from in here. I mean, yeah, I didn't do like the breakfast clubby teen piece from from stargirl, like there's so many different places. They're good. You know, it's a sad moment in this universe when, um, what's the magician from stargirl? What was his name? Yeah, when, when, uh, when, when his son died. Oh, my god, I'll never forget that.
Speaker 2:I said wait a wait, wait, no um, yeah, there's a lot of good ones. Um, uh, no, I'm not saying barry and iris and I'm not saying all of them. Felicity, those relationships were fine. You could do dig and lila, for, like the, I like digging lila. I mean, realistically, the best one is probably clark and lois, right?
Speaker 1:I think it's. It's either clark and lois or I don't know man, that Black Lightning, and it's Jefferson and his daughters. I think that one's a really my girls. Yeah, my girls, that's the backbone of the only reason that he kept going.
Speaker 2:Variations of John Wesley Shipp and Grant Gunston.
Speaker 2:Oh my, God, that's a really good one, Whether it's Barry and his dad, whether it's Barry and Jake Eric, or whether it's Barry and Older Barry, those two together just click. They just work together really, really well. Most heroic moment I mean I'm biased for this one it's Oliver's sacrifice in Christ's Under the Fingers. That's a really good one. That frame talk about cinema moments that frame of him reaching back and there's nothing in his quiver and he's staring down like the demons, whatever they are, sort of discount parademons, and like his quiver's empty, and you're like, oh no, like this is it? Like it hits you, like it hits you in that moment Cause, like you know, Christ on Infinite Earths is basically, they set it up that Oliver was going to die Like he knew.
Speaker 2:But you get to the end of that first episode and like he shoots the monitor and like just like disables them. Like barry like is calling out to oliver and he vanishes and it's just oliver by himself and he reaches back and the quiver is empty and he just like you just see it like in his eyes where, like he knows, and he just kind of like deep sighs and like the music swells and he runs in there and then next time you see him, he like appears on the bed and you're like, ah shit. And like all these like it's funny because like the way they frame it is like all these super powerful dc characters like are surrounding the green arrow yeah, it's like the flash is there. Supergirl is there. The green arrow yeah, it's like the flash is there. Supergirl is there, superman is there, and they're all just like watching like god die. You're like, oh shit. Um, also, my real answer for best introduction to the universe is katherine mcnamara, as me, but we'll save that for another category. Um, what's yours?
Speaker 1:my most heroic moment. I can mean I can easily go bury the end of season one, him jumping into that portal and not knowing what's gonna happen, and to him be such a young hero to us also not knowing what's gonna happen. Yeah yeah, that's man, that's when that universe had the absolute juice. When you're like, yep, I'm intrigued.
Speaker 2:Season one of the flash ends with him jumping into a wormhole and you're like, yep, I'm intrigued.
Speaker 1:Season one of the Flash ends with him jumping into a wormhole and you're like, excuse me, that can't be it. No, that was, and that in fact was not it. Open the multiverse for the whole universe.
Speaker 2:Welcome to. Earth 2.
Speaker 1:What? There's another Earth, huh, multiple Earths. Infinite scroll infinite earths, talos. He said how many earths are there? Talos? Infinite? Oh my god. Oh my god, you knew and you didn't want me to know. I don't think there's enough room in this universe. I think that's your style. The monitor to the? Oh my god. Oh my god, yeah, I'm gonna have to go with that one. That's your stuff. The monitor to the end oh my God, yeah, I'm going to have to go with that one.
Speaker 2:That's a good one. A crisis is imminent, something's coming. Someone way more powerful than myself, uh-oh. Also, shout out to Captain Cold's Sacrifice. There are no strings on me. It's pretty good. Earth 90, barry Allen, sacrry allen sacrifice oh, that's good, that's really christ on offenders um black lightning also.
Speaker 1:Well, he gets replaced.
Speaker 2:He was gonna so yeah, um the wells, the sacrifice of wells. Wells is plural, um, at the end of the season seven of the flash, it's either six or seven when he talks to the different wells.
Speaker 1:Superman, season 3. Superman and Lois, season 3. Against Doomsday, great Doomsday, dang Doomsday. Every time, superman, they're Doomsday scissors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of good ones.
Speaker 1:Let me run through. Let's do this favorite legacy. Actor in this universe.
Speaker 2:I was going to say, yeah, I was going to bring that one up. I was going to bring that up as a category, like favorite, kind of like not cameo, but, like you know, homage casting. I guess you can say yeah mine's easily.
Speaker 1:It's john wesley ship. I don't even that's probably the correct answer.
Speaker 2:Um, I'm just gonna say kevin conroy. Um, just seeing him play some version of ruse wayne in live action was just like cathartic right for. Like anyone that grew up on batman, the animated series like man clark always serve into something with a name or a flag or a badge and I'm like that's batman dude, like that's batman, like I don't care, I don't care that he's beating up supergirl and batwoman, I don't care, he's batman like um, what's your favorite heat check performance?
Speaker 1:I have a weird wild dog. Wild dog is good. I have a weird way to think about mine. It's legends of tomorrow itself is a concept, because I don't understand. You know what it actually is. It's probably star girl, if I want to think about it that way even in the heat of battle, he don't miss yeah, star girl came in immediately.
Speaker 1:It felt different, like it felt different. Obviously it was coming out on hbo max at that time too, but it felt different. It was one of the best week-to-week watches that I'd ever had in this universe as well, too, and this is deep into this universe like a week to week. I'm invested in this. I was really surprised at does titan scan into this whole conversation technically?
Speaker 2:technically, because there's that one episode of titans where beast boy goes into the multiverse and grant gustin runs around him not actual grant gustin and then he well, he crosses over into Stargirl yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know man.
Speaker 2:Um, he checked, he checked performance by Firestorm. If I had to, sorry man, if I had to pick an actor, I mean, you want to talk about someone that was just like he became. He was like the main villain of a season, but like, as soon as he came on screen, like the vibe was different. And it's Neil McDonagh as Damien Dark.
Speaker 1:You want to talk about having fun.
Speaker 2:Can we talk about a guy just hijacking any scene or season of TV he's in? I would say Damien Dark. I would also say Matt Letcher's reverse Flash, to the point where they finally brought him back at the end of the Flash season 8 and then he got replaced again by Harrison Wells. Not those guys.
Speaker 1:These Harrison Wells, not those guys, these guys. Funniest moment. This might be one of the toughest ones that we've ever had. Oh man, I'm just going to keep this very simple because it's very early in this universe. It's the black driver joke. I think it kills me every single time. That's pretty good. Just your black driver Typecast means your black driver time.
Speaker 2:That's pretty good. I'm just your black driver. Typecast means you're a black driver.
Speaker 1:That's pretty good, oh, you know what it is. It might be early, oliver. It's funny how Arrowverse, or Arrow season one, is like supposed to be the least funny out of all these shows. Oh god, he's hilarious but then it's like it's also hilarious it's incredible you know what the funniest thing in this whole universe is? It's Oliver's voice change to when he's the Arrow versus when he's Oliver Queen.
Speaker 2:He goes up an octave he goes to like Well, yeah, he does the. He's natural Stephen Amell when he's Oliver Queen.
Speaker 1:When he's Oliver Queen, when he's party boy, oliver Queen.
Speaker 2:The Black Driver joke is pretty good. It's just like the Looneyoney tunes nature of lance versus the hood.
Speaker 1:Oh, oh, never mind, it's the um. You know what it is. It's the groundhog day episode of legends. It's hilarious. That episode always kills me yeah, the looney tunes.
Speaker 2:Nature of season one. Lance versus the hood is pretty funny, where, like he's pinning Lance to cars, he like puts him up against the car and he's like, detective, you need to listen. And he's like I'm going to get you and he never gets him. Are you the man in this picture? Maybe, but he's like talking to Laurel about the lie detector and he's like I kind of want to take the polygraph and if I fail, best exposition dump.
Speaker 2:This is a good one is it the monitor explaining the concepts of the multivit I was going to?
Speaker 1:say the same thing, is it? Last night I saw a superhero. He was black. Come on. Man said this is for the streets black lightning's back. That is an exposition dump in the theme song. Is it early season one that is?
Speaker 2:an exposition. It's helping to really work. It is, is it no? Is? Is it early season one?
Speaker 1:no, don't talk about the monologues. Don't do it the name of the island no no, it's Baron Ryder explaining everything in season four of Bear Girl.
Speaker 2:Mr Queen, look at this ancient artifact that I found. Baron Ryder could easily win, actually that might be the funniest moment is Baron Ryder inexplicably trusting Oliver. It's my white savior character. I'm in All of a sudden. You're my right-hand man. What?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the one guy on the island that's been with him the whole time. He said come on, man.
Speaker 2:This is a man with vision, and then he betrays him. You know who's not a man with vision, wanda Sorry. How could you do this to me, Mr Queen? You've betrayed me.
Speaker 1:Best source material callback.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what One of my favorite early ones was the Solomon Grundy thing. Do you remember that? Yeah, that's good when they found the Solomon Grundy story on dude's kitchen table and Diggle read it out and I'm like what?
Speaker 1:And then they did Solomon Grundy in Stargirl.
Speaker 2:Is it also the Batman being an urban legend?
Speaker 1:I do quite like that, and they made Elseworlds such this reliant piece on it and I think that's pretty good. That's source material callback. I mean I know the early Flash has a lot of stuff they pull right from the comics as well too it just like the integration of all all three flashes yeah, within the confines of like one oh you know what it is.
Speaker 1:It's when jay garrick's helmet comes through and like, and then the whole your mind, because you have to wait a whole season, you have to wait a whole off season, so it's like the multiverse concept coming into. I love that the helmet comes through and Reverse Flash is like I gotta go, I gotta go, man, that's pretty good. Best NPC oh, it's Evelyn from Arrow, season 5. Oh my god.
Speaker 2:No, artemis, they butchered that character. They really did. God, that was terrible. I didn't like that. That's the one thing about Arrow Season 5 that I didn't like that. That's the one thing about Arrow Season 5 that I didn't like, because every character was so dialed in, except for her. They ruined the Artemis character pretty spectacularly, to the point where they didn't really care about yeah Best NPC. Huh, is it the fire guy from?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to get what he never could Money. You know, this universe is incredible, cause you can have moments like from like Superman and Lois, like these or like the runaway dinosaur, but then also you get these absurd episodes where Iris becomes the flash and it's like this slapstick, like 90s comedy. Is it the second?
Speaker 2:iteration of the Royal Flush game that talk nothing but oh yeah, yeah, and then they're immediately dealt with and the flash just clowns them yeah, you know it's a good relationship.
Speaker 1:That doesn't make any sense but still is good. It's the family from like when oliver makes a decision to be like I'm not just gonna hunt these high-end criminals like, I'm gonna hunt everybody I don't do street crime diggle and and Diggle's like why not? Man, that's messed up. I just thought about that Favorite action sequence.
Speaker 2:Oh, I like the Arrow Season 2 finale fight, the constant flipping back and forth between Oliver fighting Deathstroke on yeah, yeah in current day and him fighting him on the island, yep.
Speaker 1:I quite like that. That's really good. That's a really good one. I'm going to go Superman versus John Henry Irons. Woo boy, you want to talk about the? Oh, okay, you know what New category alert Best?
Speaker 2:reveal in the whole era. I was going to say that, yeah, I mean, there's quite a few good ones, but that John Henry Irons one Lord, holy smokes. You're not the man of Steel I am, I am. You're like whoa.
Speaker 1:Because Rob was upset they were going to do a Black Lex Luthor before that that reveal is incredible, and they do that constantly in their show too.
Speaker 2:Whether it's that, whether it's Lex turning Bizarro into Doomsday.
Speaker 1:That was a really good one, and it's such a good way to not waste time Like waste time because you don't have a lot of time.
Speaker 2:Not just Lex turning Bizarro into Doomsday, but just the Bizarro concept in general Of him being a Superman from an alternate Earth. That kind of gets warped into Bizarro Is really cool. I'm a superhero, lois. I go where people need me to go and then he just goes full bizarro at the end. But that john henry irons one is wild. It's actually wild like god. That one is good. Yeah, um, the reverse flash one obviously is great I'm gonna stick with my adrian chase one adrian Chase. One is tremendous, the Zoom one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that Zoom one, oh yeah, well, that Zoom one had everybody and, like I said, this is when this universe was really starting to cook, like that Flash Season 2, arrow Season 4, unfortunately, arrow Season 4 suffers a lot, but that's when the universe overall was getting super, super popular.
Speaker 2:That Zoom reveal man, that scream, that grant lets out when he's just fed up with being betrayed by his mentors. It keeps happening if I had a nickel for every mentor that betrayed me, I'd have two nickels, but it's weird that it happened twice man, man, that that zoom reveal is something.
Speaker 1:That zoom reveal is something man, um, we'll do. Favorite line oh, woof, woof, I mean the that lightning, that lightning berry. I mean I'm, I'm gonna probably still stick with it like the like why did you kill my mother? Because I hate you like I. You want to talk about pure, like a pure hater, like an actual person that just like I actually like, because most people are fake haters. That is a real life, genuine. I hate you from the bottom of my heart.
Speaker 2:I time travel, barry, I mean realistically, like for me, and it's obviously just one that's just gonna stick from now until it's already. You have failed the city, like that's just.
Speaker 1:You're just like, you're just in, you're just in on everything at that point, using the same logic, because they play it right in the first episode. It's run, barry, run I mean. And then you, you can play it emotionally, you can play it campy, you can play it so many ways, but I mean the, that reverse, or you know what? I'll go further. The first reverse flash pep talk from episode one of like how the lightning chose him. I don't remember the exact quote, but like that whole. That's like the first motivational speech where it's like wait, am I, am I into this? And we were, we were locked in I mean, yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:You have failed the city for me, just because, like when he comes back in flash season eight, ramsey rosso, you have failed this city and I'm like, hey, we're so bad. Yeah, we've never been more bad. Um, favorite shot, um I'm still thinking about lines. You jumped this on me. Oh, my bad um okay, give me a line. The essence of heroism is to die so others can live, which is all of it at the end of arrow that's pretty good it's pretty good. It's pretty good man dang man favorite shot.
Speaker 2:Um, I feel like everything I have to pick from is Superman and the Lost Beast, because I just think of that scene where he floats in front of the suns for the first time and he's silhouetted by the sun in the background and he flies up in the air and it's that wide of him in front of the truck and the kids and you're like that's Superman, dude, like it just is, like that's the most Superman thing I've ever seen.
Speaker 1:I mean I can just pull from when they recreated the original Superman number one from 1940. Um, when they do the montage sequence in episode one. Oh, when he catches the car he catches the car and he's just like that's a cool suit. Thanks, my mom made it for me. Like what were they cooking?
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:I I remember watching that first episode of my like draw dropped. I like I couldn't believe it man, merry christmas.
Speaker 2:It's iconic. You never forget where you were when you said that yep, merry christmas, you're out of marshmallows I checked how'd you get in my house?
Speaker 1:I haven't asked about marshmallows, we're not worried about that favorite performance. This is, wow, so many good ones. Yeah, we'll do favorite villain and then favorite hero, so we'll volley back between. I mean, my favorite villain performance is Manu Bennett. Specifically for me, it's Manu Bennett as Deathstroke. I mean, you want to talk about the ideology of instilling fear, of like this hero cannot beat this man.
Speaker 2:The highs and highs, the highs. It's because he didn't overstay his welcome in ways that Tom Cavanaugh, I think, might have.
Speaker 1:And you want to talk about a plan like an absolute dialed in plan. He had an absolute dialed in plan the whole time.
Speaker 2:Also the moments, like the moment when he comes back in season five, and I'll never forget that moment where Oliver, like they're talking to him and Oliver's talking to him and he's like you know, the Mir mirror crew wore off a long time ago like I remember everything that I did. Um, I killed your mom. Like why are you asking me to?
Speaker 1:help you. You want to talk about a one word line choose.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's one of the saddest moments in that university's choose but when oliver pulls out the, when oliver pulls out the deathstroke mask and shows it to him and, like you see, likeade recoil as if a ghost has just entered his body.
Speaker 2:Mando Bennett just understood that character's journey and, like I said, the highs never got low with Deathstroke because obviously DC made the CW take him away until they were allowed to reuse him again, whereas the Reverse Flash obviously the Season 1 highs of Reverse Flash flash were great but he never quite gets back there. No, it's tough as the reverse flash like there's a little bit of season. Was it season six? When I love the um, the future reverse flash when he kills all those guys, when he or is that season five with nora?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, season five when his plan comes to fruition and he's like the unfortunate thing is, gentlemen, you're all dead. And then you're like, oh no, but he also, he never quite get back to season one, thon, whereas like manu bennett, like he's tremendous in season two and then he goes away and he comes back in season five and he's great again. So like it's probably the most consistent, um, because merlin kind of suffers in the same way that thon suffers, where he kind of overstays a little bit. Yeah, um, unfortunately, zoom. It also happens to zoom, like when they bring him back in season eight lord where he just becomes a cop.
Speaker 2:He loves killing cops.
Speaker 1:I don't understand um hero performance for me. I'm going to go a different route for this one. Not a different route because it's still 100% valid. But I'm not going to pick Grant Gustin because that's too easy, or Tyler Hecklin. I'm going to go with Melissa Benoist as Supergirl. That's great. I mean you want to talk about she had some ultimate pressure just from not being Superman. Like she had some ultimate pressure right away. She had the cbs money instead of the cw money. You know what I mean like. So she had. She had a lot of shoes to fill and I mean from the first second she is on the screen. I buy her as supergirl. I believe in her as supergirl.
Speaker 2:I love she's so good supergirl she does what supergirl, what tyler hacklin does superman like, and you know what she does really well.
Speaker 1:She bounces off every single crossover character so incredibly. I love her relationship with barry.
Speaker 2:Yep, I love it. They're so magnetic together.
Speaker 1:I mean it culminates in that the musical yeah, the duet, the musical is incredible, yeah it's just you want to slice it yeah, they play on the fact that victor garber and jesse l martin are, and john barman, yep our broadway alums.
Speaker 2:They bring in Darren Criss to play Music Meister, which is an incredible bit of casting. Shout out, glee, that musical episode. I remember being like ugh, we're doing a musical episode. And then I watched it and I'm like this is amazing, everyone's cooking. Carlos Valdez was cooking in that episode. Is this a Transformers game? Is it Transformers? Is it Transformers or Warhammer? I can't tell.
Speaker 1:It looks like Transformers. It might be. No, I don't think this is Transformers. Nope, steel Hunters.
Speaker 2:It's Transformers adjacent.
Speaker 1:Now we get into the two most tough categories Favorite character.
Speaker 2:I mean it's not that tough for me yeah me neither. Also, I do want to shout out performance-wise Katie Lotz.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, that's a really good one too.
Speaker 2:As Sarah, lance, that character. You never knew what was going on with that character. Is she just there to die? Is she there to be part of Oliver's tragic backstory? Then she comes back as Black Canary and you're like, oh, this is interesting. Then she canary and you're like, oh, this is interesting. Then she dies again and you're like, oh, okay, so she's just there to die. Then she comes back and she becomes the white canary and like she has this whole arc about her rebirth and then she becomes one of the staples. She becomes to the legends what oliver was to his team. Like she's the stabilizing force. Um, she has, unfortunately, like that.
Speaker 2:I would have loved to have seen her integrated more back into arrow, especially, like you know, after laurel dies. Um, I would have liked to seen her like kind of vibe more with the arrow crew. Right, obviously you needed her for legends because, like she was like the driving force of that show, especially after you lose wentworth miller in season one. Like it's pretty much her show at that point, with a bunch of supporting characters. Um, but I love her performance as Sarah. Um, it was weirdly enough like the relationship I bought the most out of, like all of Oliver's relationships Cause they were kind of like forged by, like equal fires, like they were bonded by their trauma, which I always bought Right and I liked that they leaned into that a lot in.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, season two, um yeah, also like the bit of taboo nature behind their relationship of like there was. You know, that wasn't an organic relationship like they were. There was cheating involved when that relationship started. Yeah, and it's like again and then that led into like they were connected in ways that just oliver and and sarah never could be. Yeah, so, and yeah I mean the oliver and laurel, I mean oliver and laura could ever or laurel could have ever been I just they just gave up on that yeah, too quickly I agree, I think those actors had a spark and they didn't let them get that spark when they both matured as actors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that I think in a way could have been really special.
Speaker 1:Even if it was, even if they played it you know how I think about it even if they played it as like because they kind of touch on this if they played it as like a Black Widow and Captain America situation in the later stages of the Infinity Saga, that's exactly how I would have played it Like our romantic relationship might be gone, but like we're still.
Speaker 2:I'm still tethered to you in a way that nobody else and they play with that idea in season at the end of season two of arrow when she, when he is so beaten down and he's down there and he's like I can't beat slade and she goes.
Speaker 2:I forget the exact dialogue is, but she basically says like I know, I may not know anything about hoods and vigilantes, but I know you, oliver, like I know you better than I know my own name, like the like back of my hand. She's like you don't, you don't give up, like that's your and she's the one that pulls him out of his stupor, which is what laurel should have always been. But obviously felicity's tested better with the audiences, so they, they move forward with that being the relationship. But it could have. Laurel should have stuck around more than season four. We shouldn't have had to lose Katie Cassidy in season four. I mean, we get her back, they bring her back with Black Siren and they kind of hint.
Speaker 1:And then they sprinkled her in throughout the multiverse.
Speaker 2:But one of my favorite episodes of Arrow, weirdly enough, is the invasion episode, the 100th episode. Yep, and you look at what Oliver's. I always make this argument Like Oliver's ideal life that he's dreaming about is being married to Laurel Mm-hmm, like that's what he wants in his dreams and it's like Borderlands 4. Borderlands 4. Holy crap and Brutalance 4 and it's never referenced. Don't get me. You're gonna get me going.
Speaker 1:Don't let me get me going and then this is the one, and I knew this was gonna be the toughest one going in, you knew this was coming Pete your favorite scene or moment in this absolute universe.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's hard to pick just one this is how I'm gonna approach it, because you wanna talk about Coleman. It's the fact that crisis on infinite works earth's even worked is the reason that's the best thing, because each character gets their shine. Each character gets some intimate moments, they get their action moments, and it's it's also the fact that it was arrows last season, for that as well, too, really plays into the reason that it worked. So, like it was the whole thing of like you're doing in infinity war and end game, but you still know iron man's the main character. It's the same thing you're doing christ on infinite earths, like captain america's still there, the flash is still there. You know supergirl's still there, like thor's, but like this is an iron man and this, this is a, this is a, this is an arrow thing, like this is a green arrow. He is the main character and he is the block that built this entire thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and they did it in a really tasteful, really beautiful way too.
Speaker 1:Legacy. Talk about the legacy of the DC comics as a whole, the DC landscape as a whole.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's hard to top that you can pick man. Yeah, people say they can bash this universe all they want, but there's some genuine moments where, like you feel things for these moments.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did we just do the same thing at the same time?
Speaker 2:What are you doing here, clive? What is this? Oh, is he going wait? What is this? What is happening? What is going on in Final Fantasy 16? I don't know. What did final fantasy 16 show up? Oh, he's in tekken. Wait, excuse me, they're putting clive in tekken. That's, that's awesome. Oh, they put clive in tekken, that's awesome. Oh, that stage is sick too. Oh, they gave him his drive form. That's amazing. Huh, all right, very cool. Claves and tekken, that's awesome. Oh, he said, the only fantasy here is yours. Oh god, that's good. Um, all of us moments. Um, honestly, one of the most surprisingly moving moments for me was arrow in arrow season. Is it season eight?
Speaker 2:yeah, season eight, when, when the kids come to the present timeline and oliver's, this is like my, my daughter is here, and like both Stephen Amell and Kat McNamara, bring like their games in that scene where she's just like cause her whole story is like she's so distanced from him because he's obviously gone at that point, and then she sees him and they both are like looking at each other.
Speaker 2:Like this is like surreal Like they play the surreal nature of it so well. Um, and I mean that you know, I always thought the mia queen character had a little bit of juice to her. Um, in a way, obviously we're never gonna get to see. Well, she was supposed to get that show, yeah, which I think could have been good. Um, probably would have been decent to like. Okay, probably wouldn't have been great, but it probably would have had moments. Um, but that one sticks out to me. Um, I like the first official reintroduction of black lightning, sure, when he suits back up and he deals with those guys at the motel, and it's properly brutal in a way that, like, I kind of wasn't expecting.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I always say that black lightning has like black lightning was the first example of that universe like feeling a bit different. I know he's technically on a different Earth too, but like it felt a bit different.
Speaker 2:He slams some guy through a car and you're like woo, woo, you're like oh Jesus, so that's good. Obviously, the Flash has a litany of incredible moments. I love when Jay pulls him out of the time stream and gives him a talking to yeah, that's a good one, and he gives the little cup. The cup metaphor is effective, I think.
Speaker 1:You know what's a good one? That season finale of Stargirl Season 1, that big fight that they have as well too, that's decently, not decently. That's actually pretty well done. There's a lot of good moments in Stargirl Season 1.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of good moments in star girl season one. There's a lot, a lot of good moments in there too, and I mean, of course, obviously superman and lois is littered with them. It's just we're gonna, we default back to that a lot like there's moments. And then there's superman and lois moments, um, when you're just like god, what is, what are they doing to me? Um, but all those, all these shows have really really moving moments.
Speaker 1:Um, even like legends, like in the later seasons, has moments like um, I'm quite fond of Rip's relationship with his wife and like cause, like I said, the most underrated character in this universe I think it's Rip Hunter. Like he's the one that like a lot of the stuff moves through him honestly to stuff moves through him honestly to the point where, like they messed around with this character a little bit, like they made him a villain for a little bit, like they were kind of getting innovative with this character too, and I think it's the performance that helps too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, arthur Darvill, yeah, who played Rip Hunter. Like you know, he's like Doctor who when he comes in.
Speaker 1:But with Rips that episode rips, hawkman dies. Yeah, I'll never forget when Hawkman died and you texted me like no way, no shot. They killed this guy in the pilot episode Hawkman, you suck I love.
Speaker 2:Can we just Hawkman corner for a minute?
Speaker 1:Yeah, just give me Because I got you this Funko. Pop up here. Hawkman is one of the best gag gifs that I've ever gotten you. What they that I've ever gotten you?
Speaker 2:what they tried so hard to make that character cool. Is he cool? No, no, he wasn't. Actually he's. He's. He's incredible, like to the point where, like he shows up in that crossover and like cisco's, like trying to get what hawk girl? And then hawkman shows up and he's like I'm the main character. He fights the flash and arrow, he knocks oliver off his bike, which I'm like come on, stop trying to make this a thing. Then he dies, which is great. Good for him. Do you want to joke? For the last part of this? He comes back. Yeah, of course he comes back.
Speaker 2:They kill Vandal Savage and then my all time, my all time, maybe my all time favorite Arrowverse moment is in the pilot of legends tomorrow, where rip hunter gets them, gets them all together, and hawkman and hawk row are there and rip hunter is basically like have you guys heard of vandal savage and hawkman's? Like why did you say that name? He's like we need to stop vandal savage from destroying time and hawkman's like that's impossible. Like we dealt with vandal savage and rip hunter's like did you? And he's like yeah, flashing green arrow killed vandal savage and ruf punch is like ah see, that's the problem. That's where you guys messed up.
Speaker 2:You guys have to kill, you two have to kill vandal, savage and hawkman's like oh god and then he dies and vandal savage kills him and then he comes back at the end of at the end of the season. That's like evil hawkman, yeah, no nobody cares and he gets snapped out of it. And then we never see those characters again.
Speaker 1:No, it's just crazy. Like Hawkman and Hawkgirl are two big DC characters, they didn't even make it into Crisis. No, they didn't even get asked to come back. Insane. Let's end this on a little joke.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about fun stuff. It's fast, is barry. He's never fast enough, but it's always way too fast. How fast is he? How fast is he? Sometimes he gets punched by normal people right.
Speaker 1:Other times he can stop time yeah, literally he can for like for hours. He can stop time and have whole episodes, like when a nuclear bomb has already exploded.
Speaker 2:One of the coolest episodes, oh yeah, time is real aroverse, by the way, is the flash time episode super, super, super low-key, underrated character was Jesse Quick as well too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's some wasted characters.
Speaker 2:Wally West.
Speaker 1:That's the absolute.
Speaker 2:Wally West is the biggest offender, and then Hawkman and Hawkgirl, you can go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can maybe even go Ronnie as well too, but I don't think it's as egregious, because they immediately got jackson their relationship was better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean wally's. The wally west character is probably the biggest offender, especially for, like, probably someone like you that like probably grew up with the wally west flash.
Speaker 1:Well, that's, and something I've talked about a whole bunch too, is, like I knew john storden, wally west is green lantern and flash first because of justice league, unlimited, like when that show was really at its stride, I I was like four, five, six, like I was growing up, and like in the comics too I believe Barry Allen had came back at that time, but like any toys that I like, even comics like it was Wally West, like Wally West was the Flash and the fact that, like you know, keenan Longsdale cook for a little bit, but I don't know what the relationship was like between them, between him and him, and CW and Warner Brothers, because that is like the prime example of you're talking about. You know it was. It's funny because in that universe sidekicks aren't really a thing like the characters they chose to lead their shows, don't truth? It's obviously Oliver has, he has, what's his name?
Speaker 1:He is Roy, is Roy he gets Arsenal, which is really well done by by Colton Colton Hayes, yeah, Colton Hayes, just littered with with littered with Teen Wolf alums.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean they had a real opportunity at one time to toy with the Young Justice thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they did. They just didn't do it. They really could have Yep Because you had.
Speaker 2:Like imagine. I mean, obviously Legends turned out to be great, but imagine, in place of Legends they do Young Justice instead with, you know, arsenal, kid Flash, but they just got the ball.
Speaker 1:I think by the time Wally properly becomes Kid Flash. Colton Haynes is gone. Yeah, I think he's long gone by then anyway too. But yeah, it's unfortunate.
Speaker 2:Other unanswerable questions why did John Diggle give up being the Green Lantern?
Speaker 1:I don't know, man, I don't know. I don't know, because the CW said this is Superman and Lois. Let's be for real. Um, john did diggle shows up in superman and lois. That was crazy. Who? Knows man maybe he's the air reverse john diggle, but he also might not be, I don't know. Man and lila gets name dropped. I'm harbinger now she, that's literally.
Speaker 2:She literally says that, yeah, he has that whole come to jesus moment, with the reverse flash of all people about why he shouldn't be Green Lantern.
Speaker 1:Right, I don't know, man, you want to do the big one. How does time travel work in this universe?
Speaker 2:I'm going to do the reverse flash Time travel Barry.
Speaker 1:Do you understand how crazy it is that the writers literally looked at us and just flipped us off and said it doesn't matter, because Legends time travel mechanics differ from the Flashes? When he time travels differs from the multiverse approach to time. Nobody knows man.
Speaker 2:Don I saw you die? Or did you Time travel, Barry? Yeah, I watched you get erased from existence Multiple times.
Speaker 1:But there's multiple Earths, but then sometimes in this universe they'll be like well, a different decision will create a multiple Earth. But, then there's sometimes like but time travel doesn't change anything, the negative speed force. I don't even want to, I don't even want it. Man, if you talk about the four, the, what are some of the dumbest? The forces, the forces is pretty dumb oh, the forces man.
Speaker 2:Barry's mom is the speed force started as a good idea, started as a touching idea and then devolved into nonsense nonsense, isn't dion?
Speaker 1:you remember dion? The still force, still force the strength force, fuerza fuerza.
Speaker 2:What happened, man? Um, what else you know? What's funny, though making season four of arrow about magic at all, was what? What an approach. Oliver beat damien Dark with the power of positivity. I think so. I think so, mr Queen.
Speaker 1:It did give us Baron Ryder though, yeah, yeah, maybe the greatest character to come out of this universe Magic Season four of Arrow having magic was.
Speaker 2:We didn't need that.
Speaker 1:And anarchy, and not anarchy as a concept, it just had the character of Anarchy and no one cared.
Speaker 2:Damien Dark was building Tranquility Lane underground. Nobody noticed and he was going to launch all of the nukes. Remember when Felicity nuked that town and never talked?
Speaker 1:about it again. Yeah, that was crazy. Murdered all those heaps of people. She talked about it for a bit. Remember Ragman? Yeah man, oh yeah, one of our favorite characters in this whole universe.
Speaker 2:The character's so OP that they had to write him out of the show. They did.
Speaker 1:They were like wait a minute, you can't be an arrow, you're him, you can't be an arrow.
Speaker 2:Character's so OP. They had to detonate him in a nuclear explosion and he said that nuclear blast destroyed my rags yeah.
Speaker 1:Huh, yeah, I don't know how this works what else?
Speaker 2:what else is good in the Arrowverse?
Speaker 1:the thinker as a whole. Whatever the that scene, though, the thinker got a hallway fight question mark, yeah, that was crazy, that was crazy, that was nuts.
Speaker 2:I don't know man, the reverse flash just at any time.
Speaker 1:The lightsaber fight at the end of the Flash season 6, oh, the, the season finale of Flash no, or the series finale of Flash no, or the series finale. We talked about it. Execute Delta maneuvers what? Why don't you guys practice this? If it's one thing I love, it's killing cops. Oh, I'll dive even deeper into that. When Savitar shows up, it's the funniest thing because that's also just Barry. I think it's the funniest thing on planet Earth because Barry's in that suit. Then he just gets stabbed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how did he die? He's wearing a metal suit. I don't get it.
Speaker 2:He just got stabbed by Nora no.
Speaker 1:You know what they did for Godspeed. They did the same thing that Echo did to Wilson Fisk. He just made him feel bad.
Speaker 2:Cecile's arc is wild, wild. Cecile's arc is wild, wild. Cecile's arc is absolutely wild. Oh man, what that character, man cecile look, the flash made some baffling decisions.
Speaker 1:I mean, you know talking big picture. Um, before we get out of here, I mean this universe had to go through covet as well too. Like it had to go through that. That was a really I was a really trying time for that whole universe as well too. It kind of turned the whole corner for that universe. The only show that didn't suffer from that, I think, was Superman and Lois, and maybe Stargirl, because the Flash is by far the most glaring suffered from COVID.
Speaker 2:That show got hurt, bad by COVID, really bad. I mean it's tough. It was a show that you know Virtua Fighter.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:Man, yeah, the Flash. It had moments at the end there and then just some. That series finale is puzzling to this day.
Speaker 1:Insane.
Speaker 2:Especially when you compare it.
Speaker 1:I mean we'll talk about.
Speaker 2:Superman and Lois obviously insane, especially when you compare it.
Speaker 1:I mean, we'll talk about superman and lois, obviously, but when you compare the superman and lois finale, it's like the flash finale, it's, it's my, it's my thought about the coyness, like when things are coy and when things like the super, like the flash finale, wanted to be so coy for some reason, like you know. You know, in flash rebirth, like the splash page, when barry comes, like it's everybody, like max mercury, jay, garrick, his kids, it's Barry, it's everybody, it's Jesse Quick, everybody's on the splash page. I thought they were going to do that. I thought they were going to end the season on the splash page. Grant's monologue at the end is still great.
Speaker 1:It's still great, but man, oh man, you transition to that Superman and Lois finale. They give doomsday shows up, lex luther shows up, but it's not that.
Speaker 2:It's the legacy of superman played throughout the year where the flash family was just played for, like, look at all these villains that we can bring back. Well, also, like, when you do something like that, it d it deprioritizes all of those villains and all the emotion that those villains ever had, or any nuance they get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they all slapstick.
Speaker 2:It's not they all get every single one of them, even including thon.
Speaker 1:Get one noted it turns into like a stupid fan film at the end of the day, where she's like that superman and lois finale had so much like like the ranger and grab like I'm not like I'm not, I'm trust me, I'm not the person that's like this is ridiculous, that this character is being this character.
Speaker 2:But like, come on, yeah, like when you got Cecile just taking out, godspeed, yeah, when you have Curtis not Curtis, what's his name? Oh, black Hole yeah him and Allegro like take out Thawne, yeah, and then the matchups make no sense. Nora takes out Savitar.
Speaker 1:And that's his father. That would have made sense. That could have made sense.
Speaker 2:We litigated this when we talked about the Flash, yeah, but like Nora versus Savitar could have had a little something, a little juice to it, but they obviously it's one episode. It's a 140-minute episode where they show, so they shoehorned all these like zoom.
Speaker 1:Like zoom becoming what he became, eddie coming back, and like zoom becoming this like obsessed with killing cops what was the point?
Speaker 2:I don't understand even the zoom like costume like took like a notable step back. Like the mask didn't match the color of the costume. Like. They were better they I told you they should. They were better off just making it eddie and reverse flash against barry and doing it that way, instead of like trying to integrate, caitlin became like a goddess. What was going on there?
Speaker 1:it's the fact that, like you talk about the flash and like the highs and highs of the flash and Team Flash and the Flash family, and then like what's it? Choblain, Cecile, Allegra and whatever I forget his name.
Speaker 2:They integrated. They did not need that series. They needed that series finale to be about the Flash.
Speaker 1:Kojima's here.
Speaker 2:Everybody loves him. That series finale needed to be about Barry. You could have even said, you could have even made it about Barry and Iris. You could have conceivably done that In the way that the Arrow series finale was about Oliver, in the way that the Supergirl finale was about Kara, the way that the Superman and Lois finale was about Clark and Lois, the Black Lightning finale obviously that show kind of ended abruptly in a weird way. The Legends finale was about their journey. The Legends journey, the Flash finale was just like look, we're going to make you, look, exit, look, look All these characters. Look, those characters no offense to them were not the heartbeat of the show.
Speaker 1:Sisko wasn't even there, first and foremost, which is such a disservice you should have amended, whatever Carlos Valdez and Warner Brothers like Cisco wasn't there, caitlyn was not Caitlyn anymore, so like Joe was barely there.
Speaker 2:Joe was not there. Obviously, jesse L Martin had health stuff going on, but like there's, then in that case, like if you're gonna do that, just make that finale about Barry and Iris.
Speaker 1:Like if you're gonna do that, just make that finale about barry and iris simplified, sometimes less is more and the superman and lois finale you want to talk about. Play the hits, play the down to the characters down, like they weren't pulling every single superman, villain, no doomsday, lex luther, that's it so I mean blame it serums.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, the flash probably has the weakest series finale on all of them.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, which is really sad.
Speaker 2:Yep um for a show that probably has maybe the best individual season of any of these shows season one or season two, take your pick. Um, to have it end like that was just yeah. Really a shame, um, because, honestly, like there were concerns about superman and lois going into this final season, like the budget got cut a lot of these characters got cut or reduced, Like everyone got like reduced roles and people were like, are they going to just kind of throw this together and just end it?
Speaker 2:But they didn't, thank goodness. Um, so I'm kind of glad that Superman and Lois you know as much, as as much as I love the flash I'm glad that Superman and Lois got to be the end of this, instead of the Flash being the end of this. As detached as Superman and Lois is to everything else, People are going to remember this as the end of the CW-verse and I think that's really great. I think it deserves that Agreed and I can't wait. One of these days I'm just going to go back and watch them all again.
Speaker 1:I might do the episode order thing and watch as they were coming out this universe. I might do the episode order thing and like watch as they were coming out. This universe means a lot to us and shout out the Arrowverse man. Shout out to the Arrowverse wow, what a universe man would you say you're a guardian angel?
Speaker 2:I love that they brought that back. As cheesy as it was. I love that they brought that speech back at the end of Oliver's cameo in Flash Season 8. Are you a guardian angel? Are you you know? Are you the hope for your city? You know? Saving people in a flash and then he disappears.
Speaker 1:Not bad.
Speaker 2:I loved it.
Speaker 2:Not bad Good stuff. Alright, guys, where can they find us, man? They can find us on the Twitters the X's Project INF underscore pod. You can follow us on Facebook. You can follow us on Instagram At the Project Infinite pod. You can follow us on TikTok at the Project Infinite podcast. Next week, we're going to talk about Superman and Lois proper and talk about all the good things, because that show is littered with nothing but good things for the most part. Um, it has its ups and downs, but not it's not anywhere near as glaring as any of these other shows. Um, we'll talk about, like, the side characters and stuff.
Speaker 1:I think all of them are really, really compelling yeah, that family drama from season one down to the the cancer arc for lois, from season three, the vulnerability of clark down to, you know, hitting your big villains. And this show hits all the big Superman villains. It does. It hits all the big Superman villains outside of Brainiac. Brainiac was the only one which was on the cards they were planning on doing Brainiac and Darkseid in future seasons Right, which would have been awesome.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean John Henry Irons and his daughter Great, I love the Lana, the Lang family, the Lang slash Cushing family. Even Kyle, like Kyle Cushing, who feels like this one-note kind of like commentary on a certain sect of America, becomes this really kind of compelling character in his own right. You know, when he divorces Lana and he has a thing with christy and that stuff is all really great man, um, jordan and jonathan, obviously tremendous, tremendous stuff. Um, what was his dad? Yeah, um, all that good, all that stuff. And then obviously the. The introduction of lex luther in the final season is just Couldn't have been better. I know people were bullish on the Michael Kudlitz, him having the tough guy, me included.
Speaker 1:And then I started swatching and I said oh my god.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you realize, much like Superman, this Lex Luthor is at a very different point of his life from the Lex Luthor that we typically know. He's a Lex Luther like to your point. That is kind of over it and he's kind of just one note ready to just take, but also incredibly smart. Still, you see, that brilliance it's a ruthless brilliance, in a way that, like criers lex would was kind of like manipulative brilliance. Couplice's brilliance is more brute force, yeah, but it's also cunning. When he confronts we'll talk about the the final season. But like when he confronts jordan in one of the season, one of the scenes in the final season, when he's like, when he basically says like you're not built for this kid, like I'm lex luther and you're superman's son, like we're not on the same level, I don't care if you have powers. Like I've been fighting your dad for a decade, like you're not on my level, right, um, so yeah, I can't, I can't wait to talk about the show it's really, really impressive.
Speaker 2:Um, so that's it. Next week we'll talk about superman and lois. So from me and probably the easiest one of these I could have ever done, the barry allen of the podcast, yes, um waiting for this yeah, that was the easiest one of these I could have done. It was a layup who'd they see rob?
Speaker 1:which superhero did they see? What was he, bro? Come on man, what was he? He?
Speaker 2:he was real strong. That that's not the line.
Speaker 1:Last night I saw Superhero. He was what. Why did they put that?
Speaker 2:in a theme song. Because this is for the streets Black Lightning's back Every other show had an instrumental theme song and then Black Lightning comes in and it's exposition.
Speaker 1:I said it's the best exposition dump because it gets right to the point. He indeed was black and he was back.
Speaker 2:The island that they found me on was leon you, it's mandarin for purgatory cooked.
Speaker 1:I've been away for five years that lost found footage of him shot on an iPhone. Gareth Edwards probably shot those bits from the pilot.
Speaker 2:Oh man, I didn't know. You studied Russian in college, Oliver.
Speaker 1:I didn't know. You wanted to sleep with my mother, walter, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 2:This guy's a menace.
Speaker 1:Yo, what were they cooking in the early cw there? There was mad racial jokes in the early part of the season. What did tommy say? He said uh, giants, steelers, giants against black president, that's new. They made the dingle joke. When he goes to russia, he's like I haven't seen anybody like you. And he's like what do you mean? The guy rubs his face. He's like oh no, yo, oh no oh god, ah man remember the huntress.
Speaker 2:Yeah, talk about tortured souls.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oliver and helena bernielli but they might have been the most meant for each other in the whole universe man.
Speaker 2:That romance, that romantic tension was tensioning you remember cupid?
Speaker 1:she was a psycho. Her name's cupid remember when they did the suicide squad? Yeah, it was still better than the 2016 oh, do you remember the arrow? Versus. Am Amanda Waller. Yeah, yeah, she was an issue, god yo. She blew up that city dog. That was crazy, blew up the whole city.
Speaker 2:That was nuts.
Speaker 1:That was the most Amanda Waller thing I've ever seen yo, I can't believe they killed that kid from Stargirl or that early in the season on that bus. Man, I was like bro come on man. Supposed to be the fun show remember when they went to woodstock and legends, yo legends, oh no, oh yeah, we can't yeah we can't, we can't leave without talking about that's the last thing we're going to talk about, actually barack obama.
Speaker 2:I'm going to make america grod again this show, this universe.
Speaker 1:unfortunately, stuff not unfortunately, but it dude it did play into all the real world stuff that was going on. Barack Obama, barack Obama.
Speaker 2:Yo, they did Gorilla.
Speaker 1:Remember when they gave Gorilla Grodd super speed? Yeah, they did, they did the thing.
Speaker 2:Dude, we didn't even scratch the surface. That's the crazy thing, Dude I need a part two. We're gonna need a part. We're just gonna have have to talk. Part two is just gonna be all the crazy yeah, crazy fun moments. We did the series. We really love these things, amazing moments. But next, next time we talk about the universe, it's gonna be the this thing's absurd. The fun stuff, the good stuff, the map. Remember when the legends turned into muppets?
Speaker 1:yeah bibo bibo, one of the most important beings in this whole universe funny, I see arguably more important than the actual monitor, if we really want to talk about it there's a whole other monitor discussion yeah, man what does he do I?
Speaker 2:don't know man let's get out of here yeah we'll watch. Watch the rest of the game awards yeah, um, I said all the socials already, so yeah, next week. Superman and Lois, you have not failed this city no, no, you have failed this multiverse not his best.
Speaker 2:No, nope, nope, nope, nope we're not gonna, we're not gonna talk about that one, we're not, we're not gonna bring that up. See, that's, that's. That was my Morbius moment with Arrow Season four, when they opened on arrow season four and it was like it felt like I was watching an episode of like seventh heaven. I'm like, oh no. And then he said full city smoky, I failed this omelet. And I'm like, oh no, I am the green arrow.
Speaker 2:Oh man, why don't you have a press conference in a warehouse and go back to season one, oliver, when, when Malcolm Merlin was like what do you think about Green Arrow, lame, lame? Um, alright, guys, we will see you next week for some Superman and Lois discussion. Until then, goodbye.
Speaker 1:Last night I saw a superhero. He was black. He said this is where the streets black lightning's back man, I had to let you cook with that one.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
