147 - Gene Hackman, The Oscars 2025 & Captain America: Brave New World

This week on the podcast we mourn the death and celebrate the life of the legendary Gene Hackman. We take time to dissect and discuss the Oscars before leading into our full, spoiler filled review of Captain America: Brave New World. We analyze how Sam Wilson steps up to the plate following the esteemed legacy of Steve Rogers. We unpack the nuanced performances around him, including standout contributions from Harrison Ford and Carl Lumbly, which serve as critical reminders of the depth and gravitas achievable in superhero narratives. As we compare critical reception and audience engagement, we paint a picture of the film’s impact within the broader cinematic landscape. Thank you to everyone who continues to support and don’t forget to subscribe to download new episodes as they become available and don’t be afraid to share a rating!

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Transcript

Introduction

Speaker 1 0:00

It's the Infinite Podcast. Go tell your friends. It's the Infinite Podcast, my journey never ends. It's the Infinite Podcast with Rob and Kork the Cube.

Speaker 2 0:19

Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Project Infinite Podcast, the podcast covering the infinite and ever-expanding multiverse of fandom, from movies, comics, tv shows, video games. We got you covered. I'm rob, I'm here, as always, with court and court, we finally are getting around to talking about captain america it's been a journey.

Speaker 1 0:35

It's been a journey for this movie. I mean, this is the first. It's the first massive franchise release of the year, if I'm not not mistaken.

Speaker 2 0:42

Yeah, yeah, pretty easily too. I think this was one that people were I don't know if excited is the word more like curious.

Speaker 1 0:52

I think it ranged anywhere from curiosity to some animosity. I think that was kind of like the pendulum that this movie was floating on and it's unfortunate. I mean, we talked a whole bunch about Anthony Mackie and how much we liked him and how much I think he's so correct and right for this role, and once we sort of talk about the fan reception of this movie and the critical reception of this movie, you'll kind of understand that this movie was already at an uphill battle. You know what I mean. Like this movie was already kind of at like a, it was already at a ramp that I was trying to, instead of being on like this straight path road to kind of, you know, navigate. And it's unfortunate, but I still think with what, given Anthony Mackie does a great job, that's undeniable.

Speaker 1 1:32

Harrison Ford you know the extenuating circumstance of William Hurt still stinks, because obviously I still think William Hurt would have been incredible. But obviously adaptation happened and Harrison Ford was phenomenal. I mean he's such what a get. And you know, I know Feige was talking about the story of them getting Harrison Ford and Anthony Mackie said it. It's like Feige, like he paused for a second. He's like we got Harrison Ford and like it's one of those like inside looking out type of things, because it's like thinking as, like a fan, you're like cool, that's harrison ford, that's indiana jones, but like as an actor, that's like getting like lebron james on your team. You're just like what the heck like, how did you, how were you able to manage to get him? So? Just absolutely, absolutely.

Anticipation for Captain America: Brave New World

Speaker 1 2:16

The performances I really want to highlight when we talk about this movie carl lumley's performance oh my god, yeah, as isaiah bradley was truthfully something like. It was truthfully something like. That's one of those performances that was almost too good to be in a movie like this as well too. Um, obviously there's things I want to talk about and we want to talk about about this movie on. You know things that were good. You know things that we didn't love, but at the end of the day, that's just cool that things like this exist. Like imagine we're this far into the mcu where we on our second Captain America and Anthony Mackie gives it his all.

Speaker 2 2:46

Yeah, I mean, I think we'll talk about this in depth a little bit, but I think the performances across the board were all really good, with one kind of glaring omission that we're going to have to talk about. But yeah, I think all across the board this movie was fun. It was a good fun time. Yes, and we'll talk about that more in depth. It was fun, it was a good fun time. Yes, and we'll talk about that more in depth. But I do want to talk about a couple other things. First and foremost, unfortunately, we had some really, really horrific news over the last week, and that is that Gene Hackman, alongside his wife, were found deceased in their home. You know the circumstances, by which are still unknown at this time. There were theories about carbon monoxide or whatever. That seems to have been not the case. So there's still so much to unpack, but I mean regardless of anything.

Speaker 1 3:32

It's unfortunate. That's the one thing we just want to overstate like rest in peace to Gene Hackman. I mean, I mean legendary legendary is an understatement.

Speaker 1 3:42

I mean the, the editor of the Conversation, literally changed the philosophy on which movies are edited because of the structure and the not the pompous, but the give that Gene Hackman and the questions and like the pondering of how to even edit. You know such a prolific actor, and I mean you run through the 70s, I mean you talk about 70s noir and like the kick that it made into US cinema. Like Gene Hackman is vehemently tied to that piece. I mean, like I said, through French Connection, through Conversation, like Gene Hackman from the 50s, 60s, all the way you know, up until you know, I believe he stopped acting what 2002, 2003 to the early 2000s. I mean Gene Hackman is one of the most legendary actors but he's also so, he's so strong-willed in his acting, he's so sure in his acting and I remember, you know this one hurts me in a weird way.

Speaker 1 4:38

We have a family tradition where every I don't know when it started, I don't know when it started, I don't know how it started but the Wednesday before Thanksgiving obviously nobody wants to cook that day because you're going to do all the cooking tomorrow. So we always used to get takeout food of whatever but for whatever reason X amount of years ago, we just decided to watch Crimson Tide every single year. So Gene Hackman has been a part of my life for so long, in my life too, and it's just absolutely incredible. You know the, the grandeur that he speaks with um, he's a commander, he's he's a commander in the way that he acts and he's absolutely, you know, one of those voices, it's one of those faces, it's one of those performances wherever it is. He's versatile, uh, but he's dialed. I mean, he was one of the absolute all-time greatest actors to ever walk the face of this planet and it just sucks that he's gone.

Speaker 2 5:27

Yeah, 95 years old, incredible life, incredible legacy. I mean you talk about the French Connection. You talk about Superman, where he portrayed Lex Luthor in the Christopher Reeves films. You talk about Unforgiven, obviously one of his most famous performances of the early 90s. I love Enemy of the early 90s, um, I love enemy of the state.

Speaker 2 5:46

Yes, he's, he's incredible and that's that movie was really the first kind of foray for will smith into like kind of like a drama type of deal, um, and to be able to star opposite of gene hackman in that movie, I mean he's incredible in that. Um, the replacements, you know sports movie got in there right, um, one of you know, funny enough, the replacements is one of his last films because, as you said, he stopped um acting in in the early 2000s. You know, just hung it up, you know basically stress test. You know just health-wise just didn't, didn't want to continue acting and and you know again, just incredible career, incredible tragedy, tragedy. And you know it's unfortunate, it's really really unfortunate. But coming off the back of losing Gene Hackman, we did have the Oscars as well, which we kind of previewed a little bit last episode. And what else can you say, onora, probably the big winner here.

Speaker 1 6:43

Yeah, and it's funny. I watched Onora three hours before the Oscar because I just had a feeling it was going to win. I mean, sean Baker is somebody's career. I've been following, you know, as long as I remember, really getting into movies and really loving movies. I mean you're talking about a guy that won Sundance off of an iPhone and now he's getting his flowers as a four-time Oscar winner in one night. And I mean his body of work. He's a resourceful filmmaker. He's like the truest form of the indie filmmaker himself. So huge shout out to Sean Baker. I always like to blanket statement, and if I haven't before, I'm sorry, because this is our fourth Oscars we're talking about, I believe this is our third or fourth Oscars?

Speaker 2 7:21

Third, I think yeah.

Speaker 1 7:23

Yeah that we're talking about. I'll preface it with this the Oscars needs to be about the celebration of film. This through line keeps getting lost year in year out. I was rolling through Twitter, which was my mistake during the Oscars, and in one tweet, I hate this person. In the next tweet, I love this person. In the next tweet. I hate this person In the next tweets. I hate this person. The next tweets. You deserve to die.

Speaker 1 7:45

It's just, it's absurd. It's absurd and every single year. Like my favorite parts of the Oscars are when, like the best picture candidates start rolling through and like they show, like the little sizzle reel, and I'm like this is the beauty and the magic of what films are. It's like the actors talking about performances, whether you liked it or not, like that's the subjective nature, um, of the craft that you're doing. Like I just I love movies, I will always love movies. Like that's why I watch the oscars.

Speaker 1 8:13

Because it's like this grand celebration of you know it's the biggest night in movie history and movies are, like you know, movies dominate the modern culture. Like it's literally like you reference things. It's like if there weren't for movies, these things wouldn't be referenced. Like we wouldn't think about these things. Pop culture runs off a movie. So it's literally like you reference things. It's like if there weren't for movies, these things wouldn't be referenced, like we wouldn't think about these things. Pop culture runs off a movie. So it's such as things that's ingrained in this into our society as an art it is. The art is filmmaking. So filmmaking and music are the two arts that kind of run the world. So I mean I just hope, hope, hope. Like it's just there. There felt like there was this loss this year, like there was too much extracurricular and people forgot about you know the why? Like it's because we love these movies.

Speaker 2 8:51

Yeah, I mean there were a plethora of kind of storylines going into the saucers, a lot of which seemed to be kind of like at least the headline grabbers, a lot of which seemed to be like negative.

Speaker 1 9:04

Well, yeah, this year already had an uphill battle and I feel like we kind of predicted that from last year, especially because last year was so prominent. I mean, last year you had up and up like last year is exactly the oscars that you want, like I think it was the most watched oscars that it had been in so long, like they finally got viewership back up, like that's exactly what you wanted out of an oscars you want, like what's crazy is, imagine you put conan in last year's oscars. Oh boy, like that would have been like an absolute treat. So, um, I really love, um, I'm just trying to pinpoint some things. I you know how I want to spend. I want to talk positives, like I just like I'm yeah, I'm kind of sick of talking I always having to think negatively or I have to hate this thing to be like no, um, positives I want to think about. I mean, um, Mikey Madison winning best best actress is incredible You're talking about.

Speaker 1 9:53

She's got such a, she's got such like this like edge to her and she's so unassuming with that edge and that's like that's some truthfully great acting. I mean you, if I, like I said, I watched Nora a little bit before the Oscars came on and she's got such this like she's so rugged but she's also so like, pronounced Like it's really like. She's somebody that, like you can follow around a room, you can one-track follow her around a room and you're interested with whatever she's doing. She's a real versatile actor. So I think she's got the absolute brightest of career and to win, you know, best actress by 25, that's like actresses would hope to win that in their lifetime and she has won by her 25th birthday. So that's absolutely amazing. Um, obviously, a Nora winning the best picture is awesome. Um, I'm trying to think of some other ones that came about this as well, too.

Speaker 1 10:39

My absolute favorite one of the night by a long long, the longest shot, was Kieran Culkin winning for a real pain. That was the first Oscar movie that I watched in my Oscars track. You're talking about such like a I love thinking about, like the thought process of the. You know the complexities of simplicity and the simplicity of complexity. Like that's a true summation of his performance in a real pain, Like it's so simple of, like he's just. You know he's this like down on his luck guy that lives in his basement, but like you'd never know it Cause he's so charismatic to everybody outside and Jesse Eisenberg's work on that movie is absolutely incredible.

Speaker 1 11:15

Um, but Kieran Culkin, like it's the perfect. It's like one of those like actor, director relationships that kind of like are not going to be thought about too much but are so prominent. And kieran is just he's heartbreaking in that movie. But he's so funny, he's still like he. That's truthfully, he feels like a real person, like that's. That's why I love that performance so much. So made me happy. His speech made me really happy too. He's just like such like a guy you want to be around and he's like such this guy that everybody loves in hollywood.

Speaker 2 11:41

So yeah, I mean, yeah, I think I think that's a good point too, just like harping on the positives of this thing, especially because, like it felt like there were like these groundswells of negativity surrounding the show, like you know, for at first, like the first kind of like ebb of that was like the dune thing we're doing it felt like was kind of not getting its shine.

Speaker 1 12:02

And then there was like the amelia perez thing, um, yeah and, to be honest, I won't, I don't even want to, you know, I don't even want to dip into anything like that. Like, yeah, you won the awards. Cool, like cool, you won your awards. Cool, like you did your thing. Zoe won like it was a weird thing. Not weird because of it being weird. It was weird and like a good way to think about it when zoe won because obviously I wanted um. I forget who else was in that category. I believe it was, uh, monica barb, uh barbara, yeah for um, for a complete unknown um. And she really got some traction there at the end too and the in the late award stages. But I had grown up with zoealdana like my whole life, like in these massive franchises, like my first exposure to her was Star Trek, like 2009. And like my favorite thing about her, regardless of what you want to see in the movie, she acts with such ferocity to any role that she has, like any role that she has.

Speaker 1 13:00

like you're getting such humanity out of any role that she gets, which I really appreciate. So, like I said, the point I want to make for her, like I don't really want to harp on Amelia Perez, but like for Zoe, if you disagree with the win, agree with the win, so what? Like I'm just saying personally, like I've grown up with her, so it's cool to see her finally get a best, a best actor nom.

Speaker 2 13:23

Yeah, yeah, totally, um. And then you know it's just like another year in the books. This feels like it's going to be like one of those years. You know, it felt like last year was like the perfect storm when, like oppenheimer was just this juggernaut of mainstream and film, right, and I think you know that's so uniquely suited to like nolan. Yeah, like that's. You know we talk about that all the time, but he's kind of transcended the inside stuff to where his films are now events and they're also recognized by the Academy, yeah, whereas obviously next year we have the Odyssey, we'll be out Well, next year is going to be 2026.

Speaker 1 14:03

So the 2027 Oscars, when it will be like the for the year of 2026, scorsese Villeneuve, jordan Peele um, we're getting. I Scorsese Spike Lee, like we're. It's an absolutely monumentous year. It's going to play a lot Like I I forget what year it was, I think it was 2023 um, the 2023 oscars 420. Whatever year the fablemans came out, um, whatever year that like tarantino or 2019 excuse me, this is before. So, um, all the big filmmakers like your old like I think it was spike lee tarantino, because it was once upon a time in hollywood spike had Black Klansman, like that year was very much the year of like hey, don't forget that we can still do this. And it feels like 2026 is also going to be that year. The Batman's going to come out that year.

Speaker 1 14:53

Obviously, greg Fraser lost last night to the brutalist cinematographer. So I think that's going to put a little battery in his back, because I feel like that's the type of person Greg Fraser is like. He's gonna really like attempt to, and I still think he like loses a bit of sleep over the Batman. Do you think that that he's like? I made the? Like I don't like. Let's not mince. The Batman is the most gorgeous looking superhero movie there has ever been. I don't even think there's one that I would even put in the category with that in terms of superhero films, like I can't, you can't name me one that looks that good.

Speaker 2 15:29

Yeah, I think he kind of loses not loses sleep, I'm sure, but I'm sure just a lot of things that he's been nominated for over the last five, six years that you know for him to have put out the body of work that he's put out and only walk away with one Academy Award so far for Dune is kind of crazy, it's insane.

Speaker 1 15:52

I mean, he is Greg is. The biggest validation Greg should have is. I remember Roger Deakins like not vehemently, but he said, like I'm not a superhero movie type of guy, I don't think they're much. You know they don't have and, to their point, it's like their focus isn't cinematography, that's not their focus. But he said and I remember Greg was breaking down the Batman with Roger and they had to split the episodes on the Roger Deacon into two episodes. Like they had to split them because some of the things that Greg was doing on the Batman, like he was creating stuff. I mean I have that lens with me right now that they obviously have the baby version of it, but I have that lens that they use, that Soviet lens that they use Like Greg's innovation.

Speaker 1 16:34

And then you go to Dune and it's his versatility. You go to Dune and you look at the Batman. Those are two night and day ways to shoot and he shot both of those movies. So he is our new age roger deacons. And roger deacons didn't win an oscar for a while. I don't think he won an oscar until. I don't think he won an oscar until 2017. I could be wrong, but I don't think he won till blade runner 2049, and it was like finally, like, like everybody talks about leo's oscar being a long time, like no, like roger deacon should have won this in the 90s for fargo, and look at him now.

Speaker 2 17:05

So yeah, yeah. So I mean you know he's got a lot, a lot going on and and just like again, just unfortunate for him that he's, you know, only walked away with one oscar in the last handful of years that he's been doing this. Um, but yeah, I mean, as far as the show goes, it was fine. I mean, I just think they gotta, they just gotta figure out a way to make it a little more presentable to like an audience again like you got so much.

Speaker 1 17:34

There's so much negativity that surrounds the oscars, like there's there's this aura of negativity and like, again, my, the biggest thing that I'll always say year in, year out, and I think 2023, like, or the 2024 Oscars, like it solved it. It's like don't forget about what we're doing. Like 2023, like it had Dave, I'm joy Randolph one. It's like there was heart, there was heartfelt Like some of the wins, like you feel for um cord jefferson, um comes out, gives an incredible speech.

Speaker 1 18:06

I was talking about speeches with somebody, these oscar speeches, and obviously adrian brody's speech came up because it was the second longest speech of all time, by like a few seconds. It would have been the longest speech and I and I was thinking about, like matthew mcconaughey's speech and I was thinking about cord jefferson's speech from last year where he talked about we don't need one 200 million dollar movie. We need, you know, we need 201 million dollar movies and a chance like that's what. That's what hollywood needs. So it was such this. It felt like such a celebration last year of what cinema is like. It felt right like ryan gosling's performing like the most famous song in the world, like they need to get back and like they had. They had a good start. They performed the song from wicked Like it was such this good start. But, um, I think one of the biggest things is the Academy members not watching 10. You can't watch 10 movies and yeah, that story getting out was pretty um unfortunate.

Speaker 1 18:57

Yeah, it's just, it's sad, it's just like, it's like was like imagine one of your jobs is you just have to watch ten movies.

Speaker 2 19:06

Yeah, it was unfortunate that that story got out.

Speaker 1 19:09

There's so much bias behind it too. Some people said I didn't nominate this for this specific. That's wrong. That's just the wrong thing to do.

Speaker 2 19:19

I hope that story getting out just leads to some type of overhaul or something in the way that those movies are consumed by that particular body of people. But speaking of that superhero slop that the Oscars love to hate, Captain America Brave New World came out and man, I mean this movie. I just just we should just talk about real quick, just kind of like the journey of this movie.

Speaker 2 19:49

Yeah, um and and this movie is really a symptom and it's emblematic of kind of the, the, the speed bumps that that marvel has hit right um. This movie was greenlit um immediately after the conclusion of falcon the winter soldier, um, and that in in and of itself, is kind of like. The problem is falcon the winter soldier ended in 2022.

Speaker 1 20:13

No, 2021, 2021, right yeah 2021.

Speaker 2 20:17

Falcon the winter soldier ended and obviously we're talking about this movie now, four years later. Um, and that's a problem. That's a problem, um, and then we just for the longest time, didn't know what this movie was gonna be. Um, we had nothing really attached to it. And then, like, all this stuff started coming out um, that william hurt was gonna come back as thunderbolt ross, um, and that the leader was going to be involved.

Speaker 1 20:45

And on paper too. These were all things that are cool, like these are all things that are like this is interesting, this is interesting, like, obviously, if you know, like the inside baseball for the leader, like that's potentially a really good villain to have We'll talk about that more and like what came of everything but the lead-up, everything like that. There was promise and you know. However, one of the things that we kept saying and it's one of the biggest points that I have to make about this movie is one of the big things we always were saying is things kept getting added to this movie, things kept getting transitioned, people were going in and out. I think the directors swapped, the writers swapped, like a whole bunch of things changed, some things that were controllable, some things were uncontrollable. The COVID days, obviously, like, some things were uncontrollable. Out of this right, the one thing that we begged, we begged and begged is hey, don't forget one thing. This is an Anthony Mackie, sam Wilson, captain America movie. Please don't forget it, and I think we can. I'm 2575.

Speaker 2 21:45

Okay, I think this movie mostly succeeded in that.

Speaker 1 21:51

I'm torn on that because I can see where it succeeds that speech he gives to Joaquin at the end, like did that feel a little runoff from Falcon and the Winter Soldier? Sure, like you could have pocketed that in Falcon and the Winter Soldier and just had him already. Be well, she was Falcon when this movie started. But you know I'm in on that, for, like, he has his Captain America base. You know what I mean. Like he's got his Captain America base in the movie, like the public knows him, but there's no. There's no, if this makes sense.

Speaker 1 22:24

The weaving of like what his character is is not in this movie. Like there's no weaving of like of heart, like it feels like he's. If this makes it feels like he was put into an Avengers movie where, like his sole purpose is to be Captain America, not to go through the trials and tribulations of Sam Wilson and Captain America as Steve Rogers. All those movies were the trials and tribulations of Steve Rogers as Captain America and it all came to a head, even through the Avengers movies. The only one that you take a little bit away is Age of Ultron, the other Avengers, avengers 1 specifically, and then, once you get into Endgame, especially it ends it. That's my 75,. Is this movie? I don't agree with this movie as a Hulk movie. I don't agree with that narrative. No, I don't think it is either movie is a Hulk movie I don't agree with that narrative?

Speaker 1 23:15

No, I don't think it is either. However, this movie I do think it does forget sometimes that this is a Captain. It's not only a Captain America movie. This is a Sam Wilson Captain America movie. And it's weird because Civil War, it does the absolute inverse. If I want to make that point, civil War is so adamant that this is a Captain America movie.

Speaker 2 23:35

Yeah, this movie does feel like at times that Ross is the main character and that the leader is the antagonist and Sam is just kind of caught in the middle of those two things, which could be an interesting kind of a spot for him to be in, but it doesn't handle it well enough to pull that off.

Speaker 1 23:58

You made a good point of this movie. Should have been longer, like should have been a little bit longer. I think and you know some misses you have sam's sister should have been in this movie. I thought about that. Like sam's sister should have been in this movie. Sam's nephews should have been in this movie. Like it's all those grounding pieces that build, like it rounds the edges of a character. Are their families, their stakes, like what's truthfully his stakes in this movie.

Speaker 2 24:26

Like it's almost. I mean it's. The stakes are similar to that he dealt with in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I mean there's an, there is an interesting thread for him and it's really the only thread that tethers him to the plot, in the sense that Ross wants him to make the Avengers again, but he also wants Sam to be like America's guy. Like you know, you have to represent me and represent our government and it's kind of handled with kid gloves a little bit like it's kind of like a toothless plot.

Speaker 1 24:58

Yeah, because sam is just kind of like no, and then ross is like well, we have a problem then, and then the problem is never really rectified right because, like they try to do this thing of like, because like the leader stuff kind of takes over, right because they try to do the winter soldier thing of like, well, now he's a fugitive, but then like it doesn't really play until the end of the second act it doesn't he's not really a fugitive, no, he is he is, but he isn't because, he gets arrested and immediately broke like yeah, and then immediately, everything's okay he gets let out

Speaker 2 25:26

because like right the world's about to go to war and ross is just like all right, let him, let him do, let him cook, let him do whatever he wants, um, so, yeah, so that's kind of like the backdrop to this movie. And then the reception of it has been, I mean, from a critical lens it's been pretty negative. Yeah, from an audience perspective it's been fine. Yeah, I think the majority of aside from influencers aside I think the vast movie-going regular people like us quite like this movie. It's not the best movie ever, it's not, but it's far from the worst. Um, and I think when we talked, you know, kind of like our expectations. I think that's kind of like where we both a we're expecting and be hoping this movie would end up.

Speaker 1 26:07

You know it's funny and oh, I I love when I can sense that there's a director there, like. But obviously I'll say this it's tough to operate in that space. It's tough because, at the end of the day, what you're thinking about is, you know, you do need to make this big and like I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt on this point of like. Chloe zhao's always the one I'm gonna go to on this. I mean, she was fresh off of an oscar and she makes a marvel movie. So in my head, I think're going to absolutely let her cook and like I don't want to.

Speaker 1 26:43

In defense like an incredibly rich man that like has everything. But like in defense of Kevin Feige, like what he had to probably think about was, like I can let her cook. Or, like you know, test audience are a thing. Like shareholders are a thing. Like shareholders are a thing, like they're like we need to get you back to like you know, 2016, 2017, 2018. Like he has that in the back of his mind.

Speaker 1 27:04

Like he doesn't really have choice in like making these super, like artsy projects, like that's like, because I remember the Eternals reception is just like, and then I'm like this is one of the most gorgeous Marvel movies, though. And then I'm like this is one of the most gorgeous Marvel movies, though this movie looks so good. There was a lot of heart in that movie too, but sometimes that just doesn't play for a general audience. Sometimes they just want the big action scenes and the big, sometimes they just want that. That's just the way that some people are wired if they think about this from entertainment. So for Julius Ona, there's one shot in this movie where I was like wait a second, there's somebody making this movie. It's where Isaiah was in the prison and he's sitting back and it's that shadow shot of the sun was beaming in on him and it was casting a shadow of him in that cell block and I was just like wait a minute.

Speaker 2 27:55

Wait a second. Oh yeah, I mean we can jump right to the Isaiah Bradley stuff, that cell block, and I was just like wait a minute. He's like wait, wait a second. Oh my yeah, I mean we can. We can jump right to the isaiah bradley stuff. It's incredible, like it's devastating the whole the idea of him finally kind of coming out of the shadows, breaking into the spotlight. Sam kind of pulls him there. He's like I don't want to go to the white house. Like this sucks, like why are you answering to Ross? And it's a little Falcon and the Winter Soldier rehash, but at the same time it's remixed a little bit.

Speaker 1 28:23

It's the best version of what any of the plot lines in Falcon and the Winter Soldier that were to do this. It's the best. It's what Sam should have gotten in this movie If you're going to keep going from what was the past. I think one of the things I was scared about for Sam was we're just going to do the Falcon and the Winter Soldier again when we don't have to. This movie admittedly does a good job of being like alright, we're past that. I'm going to talk about Sam because I don't know what Sam's arc is in this movie. I think that's one of the biggest things I have.

Acknowledging the Life of Gene Hackman

Speaker 1 28:52

I don't know what change that he went on. He still feels like the same guy that he was at the beginning of this movie, like one. Like I said for for for Steve, like one thing they made sure of. Like each movie changes a little bit. Like first Avenger, he changed, physically changed too. But like he changed obviously winter soldier he changed. Um, age of Ultron is the throwaway because it's the team up movie. But like Civil War he changed. Infinity War he changed. Endgame, he changed, he won on a discernible arc the whole way through. Like it's not Anthony Mackie's fault and it's like this is the whole part of the room where, like, that was taking so much space. But if we're talking about Isaiah, it's the best version of that. He actually got a second arc to his piece. He got another arc.

Speaker 2 29:39

And for him to. It's heartbreaking what happens to him in that movie. He finally comes, he breaks out that nice suit and then he gets mind controlled and he's staring down the barrel of all these police officers and all I kept thinking in the back of my mind was, like are they going to? Is he going to? Like suicide by cop here? Like is that what's coming? Like felt like it could have gone that way, when he basically is like pleading with Sam, Like I can't, I can't go back to prison, Like I'm not, I can't go through this again. And then Sam, you see the bond between those two characters where Sam is like I'm gonna get you out, and Carl Lundley puts up just a tremendous tremendous performance.

Speaker 1 30:21

What you do for Sam at that point and this goes to your point about this movie needed to be longer, and the longer portions of this movie should have been dealt all in character work. Every single last ounce of it should have been dealt in character work, specifically for Sam. That's why I said you got to put his sister in this movie, got to put his nephews in this movie. You needed to put Elijah Bradley in this movie for multiple reasons. Like you should have put Elijah Bradley in this movie, they cut him out of this movie.

Speaker 1 30:47

What you do with Sam is that's the part you run with, because it gets lost. Gets lost like once you start to do the raw stuff, the, the leader stuff, the, the all, the all that Hulk, incredible Hulk stuff. Like you started to lose, like that's it, because you felt it Sam was starting on something of like oh no, you can't. Like it's what's that mean? Which is like don't remember kids, if you don't think the US government was like they would like Sam, they're gonna tell you that they want you to be Captain America. Until it's time to be Captain America, then they're going to show you what they actually want. Like he should have ran with that. Like that's the arc that they should have really tugged on for Sam of like imagine your mentor, like this man, that like was you, this is you. Like he is, he was, he could have and should have been Captain America Like I mean Joaquin talks about it. He talked about your legendary excursion to Korea. Look what they did to him. They put him right in jail after the fact and they did it again.

Speaker 1 31:41

You know what it could have been allegorical for this espionage, late 90s thriller vibes that they were going for. The allegorical piece could have been Sam's fear for like now you're going to live the fear of taking the shield. That's what it should have been this movie. I Now you're going to live the fear of taking the shield, that's what it should have been this movie. Like I never felt that Like part of me is happy because it's like me. Personally, I don't want to see Sam struggle like that, but like that's the piece. Like there's something. There's a struggle that Sam just doesn't get in this movie. Like he doesn't get, like there's no personal like struggle that he's having in this movie.

Speaker 2 32:17

No, I mean he reconciles with a little bit of doubt when Joaquin gets hospitalized. But I mean that's I like that part, but I also didn't like that's the part that felt like most Falcon and the Winter Soldier retread-y is when Joaquin's sitting there and Sam's like I don't know if I can be Captain America, and then Bucky shows up and he's like nah, man, you are Captain America, yeah we did this already. Yeah, we know, we did this already. Yeah, it happens.

Speaker 1 32:45

I think they should have spun and this is the part about the other part of Sam's arc should have revolved that Avengers plot. I remember I saw the clip dropped early and I said, oh, like, fine, like here we go. Like this is, this is something to put on Sam Schloet, like the I. Obviously I talked about what I just talked about, like his arc, about, like you know, this delineation between like I am I, am I the government's Captain America or am I my Captain America? What it should have evolved into is am I the government's Captain America or am I my Captain America? What it should have evolved into is am I the government's Captain America or am I the Avengers team that freedom fights Captain America? That should have been his. That should have been the main part of his arc. And they pulled on it and they teased us and they were just like he might reform the Avengers.

Speaker 1 33:29

He should have been like what his arc should have been like okay, I am Captain America, but can I lead as captain america? That should have been the battle that he was facing. Like I know, I can like, and it started with joaquin. Like that's what they really should have pulled on. Like I don't need. I can't even lead this kid. How am I supposed to lead the avengers? Like that's that extra 20 minutes of film that you dive into conversations with his sister, conversations with his nephews? Like you know, can I and that's how that conversation with Bucky should have, should have spun Like I can't, can I, like I know I can be an Avenger, I know I can, you know, be Captain America. Now, I just don't know if I can lead Like I need like the leader arc, not the leader character, but the leader arc for Sam. That's what they should have really, really pulled on really pulled on.

Speaker 2 34:19

Yeah, um, let's talk about the leader and ross and that whole plot because, like I said, at times this movie does become ross being the main character and the leader be being the antagonist and sam being like caught in the crossfire of that. Um, but at the same time, like harrison ford is really, really good in this movie so good, he so good.

Speaker 1 34:33

He's heartbreaking as well too. Carl Unley and Harrison Ford harbor the best performances in this movie, and the only reason that Anthony Mackie's performance itself is really good, it's just the arc he goes on is tough to kind of get it over the hump to them. So, man, harrison Ford is so good, he's so good.

Speaker 2 34:53

And what I liked about this Ross, this Ross portrayal and this how Ross has written in this movie, is he starts out as you know, he's trying to, he's trying to make, he's trying to make amends essentially with, he's trying to reconcile all of his kind of misgivings of the past, Like he's trying to rebuild the Avengers. He's trying to get Sam on board. He's trying to forge this treaty and alliance with the rest of the world. Because you know, the big plot point, which everybody knew, is that Tiamat Island is rich. In adamantium they introduce adamantium in the MCU.

Critical Reception of the New Captain America

Speaker 1 35:27

What's your believability behind the world just being peaceful and sharing the adamantium? Zero, zero, zero. They should have done the. You should have done the. Like the 90s espionage Like go full. One thing this movie operates. It's like the movie didn't like go full, send Like it's like it was like. It's like you're hitting the gas but then you're like I don't want to crash Like crash the car man.

Speaker 2 35:47

Like if you're going to do it, do it Like go full send. And I did like with Ross that the minute his plan kind of starts to unravel he flips back into that old Ross where he's like I knew I couldn't trust super people. Until you are the super person, ross, until you are the super person. All right, yeah, let's just get it over with.

Speaker 2 36:11

So I guess this is where we can talk about the leader and the Red Hulk arc. So Tim Blake Nelson came back. I remember when he was announced we were like okay, the guy from the Incredible Hulk is back and he's just been. He's been the leader for 10 years.

Speaker 1 36:27

Yeah, I mean. So basically for him he has been the leader he essentially was after the Incredible Hulk. He was imprisoned by Ross For leader he essentially was after the incredible hulk.

Speaker 2 36:39

He was imprisoned by ross. Yeah, four making up making a hulk and destroying harlem was rosh just mad.

Speaker 1 36:43

Yeah, that hell ross. He's just, he's just like a mad guy, he's just, he's just like always, like, like that's his whole thing yeah, yeah he, he made a hulk and he threw, so he got thrown in.

Speaker 2 36:56

Not just, I mean, he got thrown in black site prison, he didn't get thrown in regular prison. So like that was the first red flag, I guess, is he got thrown in like the black site prison, not like regular prison where the Ross was like this is a prison, but like you're my guy, like you're in prison because I want you here.

Speaker 1 37:15

Well, the thing is that essentially he says it, he says the hulk blood, like the gamma. Essentially, if it hits your bloodstream, your body, it turns you into like all of your physical attributes, just it does some, it does something, it's like the x gene, right like it, just incredibly exponentially gamma radiation just just does something right.

Speaker 2 37:35

So in the leader's case it made his brain bigger.

Speaker 1 37:38

Yeah, it made his brain into a Hulk. A Hulk brain, a Hulk brain. He's to the point. I don't even want to comment on the appearance of the leader.

Speaker 2 37:48

I guess it's the best they could have done.

Speaker 1 37:50

I disagree.

Speaker 2 37:51

You think they should have just gone full? Send Big head, big green head.

Speaker 1 37:56

Am I mad about the mustache? Weirdly enough is that the thing that bothered me the most is no leader must anyway no mustache for the leader, no mustache for ross. This was a mustacheless film yeah, sam has the only mustache in this film.

Speaker 2 38:08

Yeah, they even took john carlos bozzito's mustache. They did they did.

Speaker 1 38:11

I have something you want he's great.

Speaker 2 38:14

We'll get to him in a second. We'll get to him in a second. We'll get to him in a second. We got to keep talking about the leader.

Speaker 1 38:18

Oh, do you? Ooh, we'll talk about it, because I think he fits perfectly into a project that just got greenlit a few days ago.

Speaker 2 38:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah. So the lead. So I like Tim Blake Nelson's performance. He's very like Hannibal Lecter. Yeah, yeah, there's a little bit of that. What did you think of the and we talk about this all the time when you're talking about writing a character like this Did he ever feel like the smartest person in the?

Speaker 1 38:42

room. No, not to the point of like. I see every single timeline exponentially and every no, every probability. He said now Sam Wilson's a variable, he's the one that's messenger Come on man.

Speaker 2 38:57

He was like you had a 97 chance of turning the car around and going back to save isaiah. Oh, come on, but like. So if you're a probabilities guy and you're like the master strategist, shouldn't you also have a plan in place for when the probability you're able to?

Speaker 1 39:08

mind control people and you didn't have somebody that can just stay and make sure sam doesn't get to isaiah. Like I feel like that was probably whenever I get characters like this, or I see this like it's so hard, man, this might have been the easiest like win that a leader could have had, like he could have taken Sam out of this equation, so like you couldn't have a sniper 50 miles away and just wound Sam.

Speaker 2 39:28

Yeah, he was 10 steps ahead until he wasn't, which is always. It's always a weird thing with those characters. So basically the thing is, ross was keeping the leader kind of just on the leash in the prison until so that Ross could be elected president. He's using the leader's vast mind to get him elected president.

Speaker 2 39:49

I don't understand man, I still don't get it. And then, when Ross was president, he was going to let the leader out. And then, when Ross was president, he was going to let the leader out. And then, in true Ross fashion, he gets elected president and he's like, actually he's just the leader, is just going to stay in prison, I don't care about this guy. So the leader launches this revenge campaign against Ross, basically getting a hold of his medicals and somehow becoming his pill supplier. I don't man, how did ross not know where his pills were coming from? How did he not know, wasn't?

Speaker 1 40:27

he the president of, like you, you know, you're a general to congress, that's the president of the government you're talking to. President to senator to president or general to secretary of state to president. I find it so hard to believe that Ross got that much turned over on him. He was really operating that way with you. You didn't know anything was going to happen.

Speaker 2 40:55

He was really operating that way with you, like you didn't know anything was going to happen, yeah, so basically, the leader has been secretly injecting these pills that he was giving Ross for his heart condition with gamma radiation, in hopes that one day he would turn into a red Hulk, did he?

Speaker 1 41:08

know he was going to be red.

Speaker 2 41:09

I don't know, I don't think so. A blue Hulk, but he did somehow know that he would turn into a Hulk, despite nobody knowing how gamma radiation affects him.

Speaker 1 41:20

I don't have a problem with that, with him knowing he's going to turn into a Hulk. How is he red? I don't know, did he?

Speaker 2 41:25

just assume, because you and Banner are two sides of the same coin, so he's a Hulk. You're going to inevitably turn into a Hulk.

Speaker 1 41:31

No, I think he got to the point where the gamma radiation was. I mean, he turned blonsky into the abomination, true? Um, you could have probably spun the she-hulk you probably would have had. You know what's funny, you probably could have like spun the she-hulk stuff into this movie easier than the incredible hulk stuff into this movie, and I really want to think about it. That way you could have spun the intelligentsia stuff into, like this all-knowing organization that's like we're gonna bring down. Like we hate jen walters for this reason because she's a woman like we hate, can't we hate the new captain america for this reason we are going to bring them down. You are not the symbol of the america, we know. Like you could have probably spun that movie that way too, had you know, had, um, what's her name?

Speaker 1 42:12

tatiana, tatiana maslany, yeah, yeah you probably could have had her in this movie. Um, I mean, we could just address it. I don't know why mark ruffalo is not in this movie. If you were gonna do this, just put him in the movie it's.

Speaker 2 42:27

Yeah, it's kind of mind-boggling to me that there's no hulk, anything other than other than a red, all the other, even down to live tyler's in this movie. She shows up at the end. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about Giancarlo Esposito real quick.

Speaker 1 42:39

Man.

Speaker 2 42:39

Man. So Sidewinder is in this, sidewinder Because he's in the Serpent Society, except in this they're just Serpent. Now they had to MCU-ify the Serpent Society. Ex-military mercenaries. They're just mercenaries that were hired at behest of the leader to steal the Adamantium, to basically turn Japan and the US against each other. We're redoing World War II guys.

Speaker 1 43:04

Yeah.

Speaker 2 43:06

And Giancarlo Esposito for his screen time, and his kind of going against Sam is really good.

Speaker 1 43:15

He's so good. It's so ridiculously good and misused in this movie. It's so good.

Speaker 2 43:22

I love that little fight that him and Sam have when he he jumps Sam like when Sam's not in the Captain America series.

Speaker 1 43:28

Captain America caught without his wings, like. Is he the best actor on planet Earth?

Speaker 2 43:34

The answer is yes, he's the coolest guy ever and I'm so glad they didn't kill him off Because I think that character is going to be around for a little while.

Speaker 1 43:45

Part of me is sad that he's not a more prominent character. I do love the spin. You make him Professor X. That could have worked. I do love the spin where he plays some bigger character for something. I don't know who it would have been. You got options you could have taken. I'm trying to think of some characters he could have played, but you know who. He would have been incredible, as he would have been a phenomenal Galactus. Ralph Innocent, I think, is about to do some legendary stuff with that voice, but John Carlo would have been an incredible galactic. Younger John Carlo would have been an incredible silver surfer too, but I think he's. So. This is just.

Speaker 1 44:25

Obviously he was put into this movie. Seth Rollins was supposed to be Sidewinder, and they were like, I think also, here's what I think happened. I think this movie needed some pushes. So I think the original plan was have Seth Rollins be Sidewinder and the Serpent Society just gets the crap beat out of them, and that's that. I think they got Giancarlo, and they were like we'll pump him into the first project. We can get the schedule's lined up. So they pulled the trigger too early. You can save this, though, because the Punisher project was greenlit a few days ago, john.

Speaker 1 44:54

Bern, because the Punisher project was greenlit a few days ago. Jon Bernthal and John Carl Esposito yapping back and forth at each other for an hour and fighting each other would be the craziest thing.

Speaker 2 45:03

I think he could be great for that.

Speaker 1 45:05

Moon Knight would be the other option I would take.

Speaker 2 45:07

I was going to say he could be a great foil for the Young Avengers.

Speaker 1 45:11

Yeah, that would be fun. That would be fun. The Serpent Society, like a little bit more powered version of the serpent society, would be don carlos bizito beefing with children.

Speaker 2 45:19

I think would be great, yeah, yeah like what's the problem?

Speaker 1 45:22

like what's the issue? Obviously you'd have to beep, beef them up a little bit. Like sure, make them, because, like I, I think kate alone could probably handle them. So maybe you guys gotta figure something out, because you got actually like a reality warper. You got a guy with super speed all right.

Speaker 2 45:37

Well, maybe the twins are on vacation no, they're there.

Speaker 1 45:40

It's the, it's the young avengers, they're there they're on vacation for this mission who can, like I like I said I think moon knight season two can utilize him. Um, if you're gonna do that, like oscar isaac and him against each other would be good. I was thinking of what if he gets like one of the one of avatars, like he turns into one of the avatars, it's basically Moon Knight versus whatever avatar takes him. I just think that Punisher special screams. Get John Carlo Esposito against him in there. I don't even know how that's.

Speaker 1 46:08

Even they get in the same place.

Speaker 2 46:11

I was just so thrilled that he didn't die, I was just like great good. I love the little scene when he goes to see Sidewinder again and he's like help me out. He's like I want full immunity, full immunity, no questions asked. He's like no. He's like huh. He's like alright, fine, what else happens in this movie? We can talk about the. Should we talk about the political subplot? Okay, sure, the adamantium stuff. It doesn't really. It doesn't go anywhere.

Speaker 1 46:44

No, because the Japanese president just won't move.

Speaker 2 46:48

He just won't move on his stand and it doesn't build to anything that I thought.

Speaker 1 46:52

Well, that's the political thriller half of the movie that this movie was trying to sell on. Like this 90s, like this enemy of the state-esque, like political thriller they were trying to put together. I just thought it was gonna build to something. Yeah, like it really didn't. What if he turned into silver samurai, the president of japan, and he's just standing on top of the roof and the power goes out again?

Speaker 2 47:11

he's like like we culminate in this, like Japan is going to take the adamantium and Ross is like I'm out of my watch. God damn it.

Speaker 1 47:22

That was a great Ross impression. That was a great Harrison Ford impression. Nice, harrison, is that you?

Speaker 2 47:29

And it just kind of it just sets up for this set piece in the ocean, which I mean Sam surfs on a missile, he did surf on a missile, like there's some cool. Which I mean Sam surfs on a missile he did surf on a missile, like there's some cool. Look, I love Captain America, I love Steve Rogers Yo, he's not.

Speaker 1 47:43

Yo. Can we talk about that? Can we talk about how Sam might be the most capable Captain America we've ever seen?

Speaker 2 47:48

He is an issue, steve Rogers' Captain America is not built for that particular mission. He's just not. He can't fly.

Speaker 1 47:59

The iconography and symbolism of Sam having the wings and, you know, I guess he could jump from boat to boat. No, he can't?

Speaker 2 48:04

He doesn't have ups like that. That's about all he could do. Like Sam was flying, he was taking out jets.

Speaker 1 48:11

Jet planes. Yeah, I'm sorry, steve, you can't do that. And then he fought a Red Hulk afterwards. He did fight the Red Hulk. Should he have been murdered in the first three seconds of that fight?

Speaker 2 48:20

I mean he got dunked through the White House he did.

Speaker 1 48:22

That was crazy he like bear, hugged him through like the East Wing. That was nuts. That probably should have put him down.

Speaker 2 48:30

Yeah, yeah, that was no Yo, the vibranium suit question mark Yo, what can it do? So I mean, yeah, the adamantium political US versus Japan stuff is just a lot of window dressing for the Red Hulk, because he's about to do it. He's about to Red Hulk out and he's got the leader in his brain going turn into a Red Hulk, turn into a Red Hulk, turn into a Red Hulk. And he's about to. And then Sam saves the day and he's like I don't have to turn into a red Hulk. And then the leader gets arrested. And then Ross is about to give a big speech at the Rose Garden and then the leader's like what if I leaked out every horrible thing you did to me while I was in prison? And that's it.

Speaker 1 49:17

And Ross in prison and that's it and ross turns into a red hole. That scene was crazy because obviously it was a reshoot scene, but that scene was crazy when the leader got captured. That was nuts. I said, sam, should you not be with the president of the united states right now? Like why are you with? And also, why didn't you just apprehend the leader right then? And there, um, you fought side, you fought the sidewinder, but the leader was an issue yeah, so r.

Speaker 2 49:36

so Ross turns into a Red Hulk. Everyone's mortified. Who could have seen this coming? Everyone that the arch nemesis of the Hulk was also a Hulk.

Speaker 1 49:48

It's a good-looking Red Hulk. Oh yeah, he looks really good. He looks good as the Red Hulk.

Speaker 2 49:53

I think he looks pretty good. And then we get the big, we get the Red Hulk, and I was I don't know why I was convinced that the Red Hulk-Cats of America fight wasn't going to be the final third act fight. Maybe it was just because it was too obvious, but then it was. It was just that.

Speaker 1 50:08

On paper it's still insane.

Speaker 2 50:10

It's still insane. Sam is just getting thrown around. He stabs the Red Hulk. Let me tell you what, though, Sam, he does do his best. He does his best fighting a Red Hulk. He uses the Vibranium. The Red Hulk just rips the Vibranium one of the Vibranium wings off. How rips one of the Vibranium wings off? How?

Speaker 1 50:26

strong are you bud? He's real strong. He's a Hulk. Yeah, he is a Hulk.

Speaker 2 50:30

He's Hulk strong, mark Ruffalo isn't cooking like that. Imagine if Sam had a Captain America version of the Hulkbuster armor.

Speaker 1 50:35

Yo, that would have been awesome With Wakandan tech?

Speaker 2 50:39

Yeah, that would have been awesome. So you think Sam's dead to rights. And Sam, this is the Captain America and he doesn't stay down, he doesn't stay down, he doesn't give up. And then he just how did you feel about Sam beating the Red Hulk with the power of friendship?

Speaker 1 50:56

No, no, no, we're past that. This is the. What? Is this the 15th year of the MCU or the 17th year the MCU's been around? The MCU's been here for 17 years, sheesh, no, cut it out.

Speaker 2 51:09

No, remember who you are, simba. No I won't.

Speaker 1 51:15

My daughter hates me. My wife's dead.

Speaker 2 51:17

Remember the cherry blossoms that you used to walk your daughter down. I thought Betty was going to show up and do it to him. Box him, box him, yo. That would've been crazy. Pack him up.

Speaker 1 51:31

Betty turns into a Hulk. I just feel like if you do the Avengers thing in this movie like I would have rather a team try to beat him and it be plausible so Red Hulk Sam is like.

Speaker 2 51:40

Remember the good times with your daughter. Who's?

Speaker 1 51:41

therapizing. That's one of the things that kind of sneak in through this movie for Sam, which I appreciated. They didn't forget about time and place, though. No, actually it was the perfect time and place because he subdued the Red Hulk.

Speaker 2 51:51

And then Ross is like oh man, I am a dad. At the end, of the day. And he turns back into Harrison Ford. Harrison Ford a lot of shirtless Harrison Ford in this movie, which I wasn't prepared for. Nobody ever is, and he just Nobody ever is. And then they throw him in the raft. You gotta go to the raft. You're not the president anymore, sorry.

Speaker 1 52:18

Who's the vice president? Who's the funniest character? That no succession planning to get Bucky to be the president at some point in this universe. Oh yeah, Bucky's running for Congress, which he's gonna get by the Thunderbolts.

Speaker 2 52:27

Who's voting for him? He canonically killed JFK. We've had worse, that's true.

Speaker 1 52:35

He was the Winter Soldier at one point, but he's on a redemption arc.

Speaker 2 52:39

Alright, everyone America does love a good redemption story. This is true. Yeah, he's alright, man Alright. One bit of this movie I think we can both agree on does not work whatsoever. Is this the Ruth character?

Speaker 1 52:51

I don't even really want to even focus on her too much, I just I mean, it's just she takes up a lot of.

Speaker 2 52:58

She's not even in the movie that much.

Speaker 1 53:00

The original cut of this movie. She was probably Black Widow in Captain America Winter Soldier See.

Speaker 2 53:09

This is why I don't mind reshoots, because that version of that movie where she's in this more than she's in it now, is horrifying. Look, I'm sure the actress is a fine woman. She's just not very good in this and just not likable. The character is just not likable, Like give all her stuff to his chief of staff.

Speaker 1 53:32

I found it absolutely absurd why you couldn't just make her the old ex-Black Widow. You couldn't have just made her an ex-Black Widow? She was fun. I liked her. What I would have personally done is make her and Sam date at some point in their lives. Yeah, give them a little bit more of an emotional stake, and these are the pieces that Sam's missing. Sam doesn't have a love interest. Sam doesn't have a family behind him. He's just got a guy in the chair.

Speaker 2 53:57

Apparently in the comics, that character Layla Taylor does have a romantic relationship with Sam Wilson, that's why I said it.

Speaker 1 54:04

They should have dated. Remember, when we were both in the military at some point. Where did you go? Oh, I was a black widow for a little bit actually. Yeah, elena Belova freed us.

Speaker 2 54:14

Yeah, she just she's just not good. She's not good. The movie comes to a screeching halt anytime that character shows up and again she's just not likable. And maybe she's not supposed to be. But even when she becomes quote-unquote likable at the end, when she's like actually sam wilson, you might be all right, I still don't like her. I don't know something about that character that I and it has nothing to do with the stuff, with that stuff.

Speaker 2 54:38

I just she was very distracting, I agree like to in like an annoying degree, when she was like isaiah bradley is this, he's the worst. And I'm like you have all this evidence that shows that he's actually not the worst and he was mind controlled. And she's like, well, really, mind control. I'm like, lady, do you know what universe you're?

Speaker 1 54:57

in half the population got snapped away by a large purple alien. But mind control is the thing that blows your mind cut it out. There was aliens pouring out of the sky 15 years ago, but that's the thing that blows your mind Mind control. A woman was floating objects with her mind, but mind control is the thing that bothers you. You were mind controlled. Wait a minute. You were a black widow. You were mind controlled.

Speaker 2 55:21

And she works with rocks.

Speaker 1 55:22

What are you talking about?

Speaker 2 55:24

Yeah, get her out.

Speaker 1 55:25

That actually just got me actually mad. You were mind-controlled. You were one of the Black Widows. What are you talking about? Mind-control doesn't exist. This is absurd. You know what?

Speaker 1 55:35

I actually hate that character now. Now I'm actually like real-life mad right now. I wasn't even thinking that way, but you're talking about mind-control being bad. You were mind-controlled. You are a black widow, but this is the craziest thing that's happened in this universe. A talking raccoon saved the universe, there's a quantum realm, but mind control is the craziest thing you've ever seen. Stop, cut it out, mind control. There's no way that the mind control. What are you talking about? If you would have said this in 2011, mcu, sure, a god came down from the sky and spewed lightning out of a hammer, but mind control is the craziest thing you've ever seen. Cut it out with ruth batzer out that was.

Speaker 2 56:22

That was an all-timer. I gotta say I'm not follow that up.

Speaker 1 56:27

That was great that got me really worked and I was like I didn't even want to engage with that character, but she has a problem with mind control. That man can lift a truck with his bare hands, but mind control is just out. This guy turned into the red hulk in front of your face but mind control is the craziest thing that's ever happened. There was a is the craziest thing that's ever happened. There was a floating city in the sky that you worked on on a base but nobody knows how to mind control anybody. You talk to ants, but mind control isn't it. That was. I'm trying to think of every MCU moment. That's just bothering me now, because that's I mean the whole adamantium thing.

Speaker 2 57:15

There's a celestial floating in the ocean.

Speaker 1 57:18

But mind control is the thing that's bothering you. How did they know to call it a celestial? Yeah, I don't care.

Speaker 2 57:27

That's a good point. And Erickstrom didn't show up? Yeah, I don't care, that's a good point. And Irishman didn't show up yeah, he didn't go to a.

Speaker 1 57:32

No, maybe he's plotting to avenge his son.

Speaker 2 57:33

We can only hope, yeah, so Ross gets thrown in the raft. The raft is humongous and there's like four people in there.

Speaker 1 57:41

No, don't forget about all the Netflix characters that are also in there. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yo, they should have put Giancarlo Esposito in there, and then they should have had him have the cell next to Diamondback.

Speaker 2 57:54

I was thinking maybe me and you can team up. Diamondback is in there, trish Walker is in there.

Speaker 1 57:59

What an interesting journey she went on.

Speaker 2 58:01

Ross is in there, the leader is in there, that's it.

Speaker 1 58:10

That's where all those those are all the super criminals. That is all the super criminals. Maybe kang's in there? No, he's not. Dr doom killed kang not yet, um.

Speaker 2 58:23

and then so sam goes to visit ross and he's you're not going to turn into a Red Hulk, are you? He's like not a lot of Red Hulk juice, sorry. And he's like well, see you later.

Speaker 1 58:39

By the way, here's your daughter. Yeah.

Speaker 2 58:41

And Ross is like man, I'm, I've a man's got to own up to his mistakes. He's like what did Sam say? He's like you could have fought this, how you didn't have to turn yourself in. What do you mean? The government was not just going to let a Red Hulk be president, that's true. So Ross is like nah, I had to step down. A Red Hulk, I had to step down. I got to do my time. Red Hulk, I had to step down. I gotta gotta do my time. Sam, I'm Harrison Ford. I might be back in one of these in the future, who knows? Um, and then Sam's like well, I got, uh, I got to run, but there's someone else that maybe wants to have a conversation with you. And then love Tyler shows up for 20 seconds and she just goes hey, dad. And he's like hey, we're going to have to postpone that walk. And she's like that's fine, we can just talk.

Speaker 1 59:34

Why didn't they do the funeral? Because I'm assuming they were going to tell the world that Ross died and like, yeah, you think it's because they didn't have a vice president like in the wings.

Speaker 1 59:47

Maybe, or they just I don't know, maybe they just I don't know, maybe they just just felt like that made was kind of cool, like not cooler, but like it was just made a little bit more sense, like to do the funeral and tell the world that ross died and like I guess because of the way it ended, that they it was so public like him and sam fighting and then him actually turning back into Ross that like everyone knew that he was alive.

Speaker 2 1:00:11

So like maybe in a different version of that movie, like they have a little more intimate of a fight where it's kind of just the two of them they do the Toad Maguire and Willem Dafoe fight from Superman 1 um, and then.

Speaker 1 1:00:22

Then the movie ends well, they have that, joaquin and him have that heart to heart yeah.

Speaker 2 1:00:28

When he's like hey, I'm sorry, you got blown out of the sky, and Joaquin's like it happens, yeah, and he's just like I'll do better next time, yeah and he said I need a seat at the table.

Speaker 1 1:00:38

I mean that that was heartfelt, like he's. Like you know, they talked about messing up like I am gonna mess up sometimes, like congratulations, kid.

Speaker 2 1:00:48

You're an avenger right like it's just like. You're the first avenger you need to be ready and and b.

Speaker 1 1:00:52

It's like hey, you inspired a kid. He's just like I don't know what imagine I did like that scene. Imagine if they did my leadership arc this whole movie. That would have been the perfect head to do this, to be like, hey, like I have to fight to even get a seat at this table and I like the fact that it came back around to Joaquin being like no, like you're the reason I wanted to be a superhero.

Speaker 2 1:01:13

You, sam Wilson, not Captain America. Like Sam Wilson, the person, sam is. Captain America? No, I know, but I mean like oh no, you're one of the.

Speaker 1 1:01:21

Captain America deniers.

Speaker 2 1:01:23

Before he was Captain America he was like I saw the Falcon, like you were the shit man.

Speaker 1 1:01:29

You could fly, yeah, and you didn't need a metal suit to do that, rhodey.

Speaker 2 1:01:34

You could fly. You're awesome. And then you became Captain America. That's the type of arc I want to go on. That's cool and Sam's like that is cool.

Speaker 1 1:01:45

He said be ready. He said we are going to do this Avengers thing.

Speaker 2 1:01:51

First, I got to go find me some Avengers. That's what he should have said at the end I got to go find me some damn Avengers. And then we get this really, really puzzling post-credits scene.

Speaker 1 1:02:03

They just did the psycho pirate thing.

Speaker 2 1:02:05

But apparently not, according to the director of the movie, because that post-credredit scene was supposed to allude to the Illuminati.

Speaker 1 1:02:13

Well, I thought the Illuminati were supposed to be in the movie.

Speaker 2 1:02:16

Well, yeah, but he said that the post-credit scene was supposed to be alluding to the Illuminati, but I didn't. Would it have been? I don't get that vibe at all.

Speaker 1 1:02:24

No, well, that finale was definitely reshot, or the post-credit scene was definitely reshot.

Speaker 2 1:02:31

Because I get the vibe that the post-credit scene was about Doctor Doom or like at least the multiverse.

Speaker 1 1:02:36

Well, yeah well. It's about like saying like, hey, like the multiverse is going to collapse soon.

Speaker 2 1:02:42

But apparently the post-credit scene was an allusion to the Illuminati, which I don't get.

Speaker 1 1:02:50

I don't get how that was supposed to allude to the Illuminati at all. I mean, who's even on the Illuminati? Well, I'm assuming the Illuminati in the MCU was those characters from the end of Shang-Chi. So Captain Marvel, bruce Banner, what kind of Illuminati is that? The MCU's Illuminati right now?

Speaker 2 1:03:05

Unless it's like a super, super secret group that we haven't seen yet.

Speaker 1 1:03:10

I mean, it would have been them. It's characters we've seen. I would be curious. You know who would be interesting on a team like that? Bucky would be interesting on a team like that. Alright, let's spitball this real quick. Yeah, who's the. Mcu's Illuminati.

Speaker 2 1:03:24

So the Illuminati by by proxy is a group of individuals representing different groups within the superhero universe.

Speaker 1 1:03:32

And they make the tough they make the tough decisions.

Speaker 2 1:03:34

No, no, no.

Speaker 1 1:03:34

The Avengers make the tough decisions. They make the immoral, like survival of the fittest decisions.

Speaker 2 1:03:40

So I think one-to-one comic to live-action Illuminati that totally works is Namor. You have Namor and Doctor Strange action.

Speaker 1 1:03:46

Illuminati. That totally works is Namor. You have Namor and Doctor Strange. I'll double down on yours Namor and Doctor Strange are non-negotiables.

Speaker 2 1:03:51

Like.

Speaker 1 1:03:51

Ben and Cumberbatch is built for a team like that.

Speaker 2 1:03:53

Because this Namor is a lunatic. He is a lunatic.

Speaker 1 1:03:57

He would flood the entire world if he needed to.

Speaker 2 1:04:01

So, Namor Doctor, how many people in Illuminati? Five, Five to six, all right. So, Namor Doctor Strange.

Speaker 1 1:04:10

Captain Marvel because I think she's also a lunatic. You know why I'm not going to go with Captain Marvel? Because of the Marvels. I think she got soft a little bit.

Speaker 2 1:04:15

She's not a lunatic anymore.

Speaker 1 1:04:16

No, Nick Fury. No, no, I think even when I'm out, I'm in. No, I don't think he'd be there. I think M mbaku would be there instead of shuri, because I think mbaku has, like the, he has the wherewithal to know, like, what was his first reaction when namor showed up. Can you guys, can we just murder him? Like, why is this?

Speaker 1 1:04:37

even a conversation, yeah, I will stick to the mountains if need be, like I'm not getting engaged unless I need to. I think mbaku would be the wakandan, because the wakandan stand-in needs to be there. Sure so M'Baku. Doctor Strange, Namor, trying to think of some of the other powers.

Speaker 2 1:04:54

Mr Fantastic, just forecasting a little bit. But who's Mr Fantastic?

Speaker 1 1:04:59

I think it would be Pedro Pascal. Well, I mean, if we're talking about that movie, at the present time that movie's coming out, I'm purposely not going to put him there. I think that movie at the present time that movie's coming out, I'm purposely not gonna put him there. I think I think that bruce is there. I think he's pulling some strings to be like I'm kind of the last guard of the old avengers, that's still like has my mind cognitive enough and I don't have two. I don't have family ties or anything like that. Like I can make tough calls already, like you know, I'm tony's friend. Like I can make these calls that he's not here for so white vision, no, he's like their enforcer, he wouldn't be there. Um, like I said, I think Bucky would be like your yeah, yeah, bucky probably has to be there.

Speaker 2 1:05:42

I was like the captain America, kind of like standard.

Speaker 1 1:05:53

I'm going gonna throw you an absolute curveball for one of them, and it would be.

Speaker 1 1:05:55

I'm just trying to pick from the corners. However you feel about the actress hope van dyne, as the wasp being there, she's the head of a fortune 500 company. Like she's, I can see her being like you know, especially after like the radical radicalization of like what her father taught her and then, like you know, her being so attached to shield and then to you know, to the pin, you know to the like all the pimp stuff, like how things falling into the wrong hands can go awry so easily like I feel like she would be a good round out as well too, to be like of somebody so happy-go-lucky as like scott, to transition, to hope, and she's like the business one.

Speaker 1 1:06:26

like things need to be done, the hard calls need to be made.

Speaker 2 1:06:28

That's a good one. I would agree with that. Yeah, so I guess they could make an Illuminati. I suppose it was just a weird post-credits scene where Sam Wilson was like what's up the leader, and the leader's like the multiverse is a problem.

Speaker 1 1:06:45

We know, you know what I might spin your Nick Fury thing and put him back, obviously not as like a member, but he's like the one that's like, no, like the multiverse is ending. It will be handled. He will be tackled.

Speaker 2 1:06:57

Like yeah, we know, we know the multiverse is the thing, the leader, we know.

Speaker 1 1:07:01

Yeah, yeah, we saw Crisis on Infinite Earths from from the CW.

Speaker 2 1:07:04

We know it's a good movie and that's it. That's Captain America Brave New World. Like I said, I think Anthony Mackie was really really good. I think if this movie's mission was to justify him as the leader of the Avengers, I think it does that, at least from a character presence standpoint. He clearly shows that he's capable, both as a Captain America and as a leader of people. He galvanized America again. You got to do better. The Red Hulk we joked about that. He was going to do that and then he did.

Speaker 1 1:07:38

Yeah, he actually did. That was actually how he beat the Red Hulk.

Speaker 2 1:07:42

He just talked to him Like hey, man, don't Don't be a Red Hulk, and Ross is like all right.

Speaker 1 1:07:48

He said, okay, All right't, don't be a red hulk and ross is like all right, he said okay, all right, I won't be a red hulk I'm just gonna go to prison. Remember when I was? No, I'm just gonna go to prison. Old ross never would have let that happen.

Speaker 2 1:07:58

No, no, old ross would have murdered him you're gonna have to kill me if you want me to go to prison you're tackled um, so um, there's a phone ringing. There is a phone ringing. I think, all in all, this movie is not the best movie of all time. It's not the worst movie of all time. It did exactly what it needed to do, and then we just plunge on ahead to the Thunderbolts.

Speaker 1 1:08:22

Which I think is that movie is going to be special. I think that movie is going to be special there. Agree, there's like actual direction and actual like. It feels like the word I used when we were talking about the trailer is definitive. There's something definitive about this. There's something zany about this movie Definitive. These performances are probably going to be heartbreaking. It feels like an actual, actual film. I'm very excited Beef Creator is making, is directing this, so yeah.

Speaker 1 1:08:50

I think that's going to be really cool. I think I think Florence Pugh is going to absolutely shine. I can't wait to see more of John Walker. I think he is singularly one of the single most interesting characters that the MCU has right now. Yep, um, funny enough, because of all the chips to Darcy Daredevil stuff, john Walker fits perfectly into Daredevil season two, if they choose to go that route. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:09:14

Yeah, so yeah, I just want to see more of that character. I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm really excited to see what this movie brings because it much like the Fantastic Four. It just feels different, mm-hmm, um, from what we've gotten so far. I know a lot of people are making the Suicide Squad comparisons and I don't think that's totally fair.

Speaker 1 1:09:35

I don't think it's that simple to be this hit squad of you. Do this or you'll die.

Speaker 2 1:09:39

And they're not in my opinion, based on how this movie's being framed with what Valentina's doing, I don't think she sees them as expendable.

Speaker 1 1:09:49

No, like in the vein of the Suicide Squad. I think she wants this team around the century. I think that was her original plan is she wants this team to bolster the century, but also to keep the century in check, and that's why you put assassins around him, because they won't have to blink twice by the time they have to murder him if something goes awry. But then the time arrives and they're like we can't kill bob, like that's bob, like he's cool. It's like that's not bob right now, though like bob's not coming to the phone right now um, yeah, and I mean I'm really really excited for all the century stuff.

Speaker 2 1:10:20

Um, that looks like the stuff they're doing with the void is going to be really, really cool. Um, looks very comic accurate too it does look very comic, accurate, I think the Paul Jenkins, or what's his name?

Speaker 1 1:10:31

Paul Jenkins, the creator of the Century. He was one of the consultants on the film itself too which is so cool.

Speaker 2 1:10:37

Yep, so that's the next Marvel offering Comes out in May.

Speaker 1 1:10:44

Yeah, so we've only got a couple months. Yeah, we're getting to the time of this. We said this year was going to be jam-packed with stuff.

Speaker 2 1:10:51

I mean Daredevil literally starts In an hour, in an hour of the night. We're recording this on Tuesday night, so Daredevil is about to come out. I want to probably circle back to Friendly Neighborhood.

Speaker 1 1:11:05

Spider-Man yes, because that show deserves some talk. That show was special talk. That show was the show special. That show is special. Um, best arc out of that show. You never would have thought it came from tombstone, but it does, yeah I mean, it's just a lot of it's.

Speaker 2 1:11:18

My favorite stuff that marvel you know, marvel studios does, is when they take origin stories and they remix them.

Speaker 1 1:11:25

Um also when their animated stuff has heart and discernment to it.

Speaker 2 1:11:31

When they flex a little creativity it can be really, really good when they're like hey, man, we have this character, let's kind of remix the origin story a little bit. They don't just do that, but too soon they do it Really with Spider-Man throughout the course of that show. I want to talk about that for sure. But next time you hear from us it'll probably be Daredevil related stuff. These first two episodes, like I said, I don't know if we're going to get into Last of Us territory with this Daredevil show where we're kind of just talking about it every week. We might it's based on the vibe the reviews, yeah, very about it every week. We might um, it's based on the vibe the reviews, yeah, so very, very good. So look forward to, uh, some daredevil heavy content over the next couple weeks. Um, and we'll, like I said, we'll try and circle around to talking about friendly neighborhood spider-man, because I think um does a lot of cool stuff and it and it sets up, potentially sets up Coleman Domingo for some live action stuff, I think.

Speaker 1 1:12:31

You make Coleman Domingo Norman, you make the kid that was in Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, harry. Okay, get them with Tom, that's pretty dang good. I just think that they to get Coleman Domingo in any project nowadays is like get him in your pride. Like don't. He said he he's, he would do it. He said he's waiting for like the right role for a superhero thing, for like a Marvel thing to, and I mean, and Norman Osborn, don't complicate it, just make him Norman Osborn, don't, don't overthink it, so uh yeah, that's it, man.

Speaker 2 1:13:04

You can follow us on Twitter at project enough underscore pod. You can follow us on twitter at project nf underscore pod. You can follow us on facebook. You can follow us on instagram at the project infinite pod. You can follow us on youtube at youtubecom slash, the project infinite podcast. Um youtube channel gonna get a little more active, hopefully in the next month or so. Tick tock, tick tock. We're on tick tock. I gotta, I gotta, keep blasting these tick tocks out. Man, I keep forgetting, but I'll get around to it Next week probably. Daredevil stuffs. As we talk about these first two episodes of Daredevil Born Again, I can't believe it's here. Seven-year hiatus Show went through a lot Didn't know what the show was going to be and now it's just Daredevil season 4, apparently. So the best timeline this is the best timeline for what this show could have been. This is the best timeline. This is the best version of what this show could have been. So I'm really, really looking forward to talking about that and from me, from the Careful.

Speaker 1 1:14:05

Careful man. This might be one of those weeks Careful man. It is one of those weeks Careful man I have to.

Speaker 2 1:14:11

I have a choice. Do you want to be the leader? No, I don't want to be the leader. The Sam Wilson of the podcast. Look, gotta do what I gotta do, man. Do you want to be the Ruth? Whatever her name was.

Speaker 1 1:14:27

Don't even mention my name and her name in the same sentence, or the actress. Don't do it don't you dare.

Speaker 2 1:14:35

So it's the Sam Wilson of the podcast. Fine, we'll see you next week for Daredevil Born Again. Until then, goodbye, peace.