The Project Infinite Podcast
A Podcast Spanning The Ever Expanding Infinite Multiverse of Fandom. From movies, to TV, to comics, to the world of gaming, we have you covered at every corner with thoughts, opinions, commentary and a little bit of comedy too.
The Project Infinite Podcast
150 - Revenge, Perspective, and the Cycle of Violence in The Last of Us Season 2
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This week, it’s all things Last of Us. ITS ALSO EPISODE 150! We are here to provide our thoughts, predictions and opinions on Season 2 of the critically acclaimed series based on the critically acclaimed video game narrative. We talk cast, crew, characters and story. SPOILERS AHEAD for major plot points of Season 2 as we discuss the ties to the game.
The boundary between savior and monster has never been thinner. In The Last of Us Season 2, the emotional fallout of Joel's fateful decision at the hospital casts a long shadow over everything that follows. Five years after settling in Jackson, Joel and Ellie's relationship has fractured under the weight of unspoken truths and impossible choices.
At the heart of this season stands Kaitlyn Dever's Abby, a character who challenges everything we thought we understood about heroes and villains in this world. Her journey runs parallel to Ellie's, forcing us to confront uncomfortable truths about justice and revenge. Through brilliant non-linear storytelling and carefully constructed character arcs, the show asks us: when does protection become possession? When does justice become cruelty? And is redemption possible in a world where survival often demands the worst of us? Thank you to everyone who continues to support and don’t forget to subscribe to download new episodes as they become available and don’t be afraid to share a rating!
0:00 Intro
04:04 Discussing The Last of Us Season 2 *SPOILER WARNING FOR THE PLOT OF THE LAST OF US PART 2*
05:51 Change vs Adaptation. What Do We Need to See?
13:30 Addressing the Abby “Problem”
20:15 The Personnel Directing This Season
23:25 Predicting and Speculating The Plot
32:30 “We Should Talk About Dina A Lot”
38:00 Should This Story START in Seattle?
49:52 Ellie Taking Over & The Rest of the Cast
58:22 More Predictions And Plot Discussion: Abby vs Ellie
01:28:17 Signing Off, Final Thoughts: BE A GOOD PERSON
Topic for Next Week: Daredevil: Born Again Season 1 Recap & Review
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Speaker 2:Podcast. Go tell your friends. It's the Infinite Podcast. My God, it never ends. It's the Infinite Podcast with Rob and Kork the Cube. Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Project Infinite Podcast, the podcast covering the infinite and ever-expanding multiverse of fandom for movies, comics, tv shows, video games. We got you covered. I'm rob. I'm here, as always, with court, court, we are previewing the last of us. It's, it's here.
Speaker 1:We made it it's one of those surreal things, right where this lightning in the bottle television show catches absolute fire and then, you know, the season two thing comes back. Obviously we just came back in daredevil, which we were so anticipating, so excited about, and now daredevil is almost over and the last of us is going to kind of take this train, um and or is going to run during that time as well. So this is the time we were talking about early late last year, early this year, of how much stuff we were about to get in, get into speaking TV and movies. I mean, you get Thunderbolts in a month During the summer, you're going to get Jurassic World, you're getting Mission Impossible in a few. What? In a few weeks? Mission Impossible, fantastic Four, obviously, superman, well, superman's like the big, it just feels to me like Superman's, the big fish in the water for the summer. But it all starts with. You know what was our first thing this year that we had? I think daredevil was the first big thing this year that we had, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 2:yeah, pretty much so, um, yeah, because that started two months ago now yes, it's been daredevil started insane to think about I know, I know we were just this kind of like. We finished talking about last week when we were, you know, before we decided we were going to do this episode first.
Speaker 2:Obviously, next week we're going to do Daredevil, but, um, it was crazy Like just talking, being like, yeah next week we're going to do our Daredevil season one review, when, like it felt like for the longest time we were just waiting for it to come out, and now it's already here and pretty much done. And then, you know, same point made to the Last of Us. Although it's weird, Like I felt, because Daredevil was subsequently a continuation but also new, it didn't feel like. It felt like it kind of came out of nowhere at the same time, Like, oh look, dang it's already here, whereas like the wait between the first season and the Last of Us, and this one feels longer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does, it does feel longer because we also had that time where, you know, and also to the point for Daredevil, he was showing up in things, fisk was showing up in things. That's a good point. This is like this, you know, isolated universe, where those types of things don't happen. It was funny we were just watching the Henry spoiler alerts for season one, but we were just watching the reactions for episode five of the last of us, season one, with henry and sam, both of their deaths and um, when ellie's rubbing the blood and we're watching people be like, well, is that it's, this isn't? Is that gonna save maybe his? But no, this isn't a superhero universe. Like no, it's not. This is bleak.
Speaker 1:And you know, the biggest thing about this franchise, about why this story it's my favorite story that's ever been made is the last of a story. The reason it works so well is because of the human aspect to this thing, and it's the most, it's probably one of the most human stories that you will ever consume, and I mean just the fact that the controversy of whatever season two is going to unfold. Obviously we're going to get the first part of it tonight. I don't care. Like it's just this show in this universe, in this move in the in the game, like they just do such an absolutely wonderful job, bleak job, a wonderful job of just making you feel, and it's just goes to the old adage Good, you know, good movies or good shows, they make you feel something, however Devastator and however triumphant, they make you feel something. In the last fest makes you feel a lot of that something.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean obviously, basically, basically, you know kind of what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about a, the episode structure of this upcoming season. We're going to talk about some of the actors involved, some of the directors involved, um, just kind of like our overall thoughts and kind of feelings on what we think this season is going to cover.
Speaker 2:Um, I will say up top, um spoiler alert for anything that that we talk about, because, um, we both have played the last of us, part two, and are familiar with the story, at least familiar enough, you know, familiar enough with the story to kind of intimate where events are going to transpire. So, if you don't want to know anything about this season the last of us, or what may or may not happen, or plot elements that you know may or may not unfold, obviously, just steer clear of this, because there are probably a couple of things that we're going to have to touch upon. As far as you know, if we're going to make any type of prediction or thoughts on where the season is going to go, we're going to naturally going to have to talk about some of the plot points of of the game, because obviously it's an adaptation. So if you don't want to know anything, um, just steer. Maybe just steer clear. Come back to us, I don't know, after the season's over or if you want to learn yourself up and you know.
Speaker 2:Brace yourself by learning about the last most part two and seeing what the story is all about. You know by all means, but obviously if you're a show-only person, that's cool too.
Speaker 2:I have a lot of people in my life that just watch the show because it's a good TV show and I've been very careful to not spoil anything or say what's going to happen. I enjoyed the ride of Last of Us of season one and they did a nice job and I expect they're going to do so again of not subverting I guess subverting expectations, if you want to talk about the Bill and Frank stuff from last season, which was a massive curveball to people who play the game. For me for the better, I think that episode is brilliant For the absolute better.
Speaker 1:I mean, we could just start our discussion just based off that and about adaptation and what you change and what you keep the same. For me and somebody made a really good point about that change and adaptation doesn't overtly need to be narrative-wise. It can be thematic, and that's what episode three does. It takes the core theme of what the Last of Us is. It's the surviving of humanity, it's the enduring survival, what's enduring and surviving. Then you translate that to Season 2. It's Jackson, it's the embodiment of the town of Jackson, that really understands that this kind of sect of humanity that still holds through, no matter how bad things get, community will still hold through. Love will still holds through. No matter how bad things get, community will still hold through. Love will still hold through. All those themes will still hold through, and that's what I think the last of us, you know, that instinct to protect your, your child, will still hold through, like that's humanity to its core, and it's something that Druckmann really understood when he made the game and that Mazin really knew how to quantify and really kind of take even farther once he took helm of this show as well too.
Speaker 1:So just looking at episode three. Just you know this otherworldly entity of just emotion, like this emotional wave and roller coaster that we went on. I mean, is there anything from the game part two that you really want to see? Kind of them take the same swing at? I think we already know that Eugene the weed farmer from jackson is gonna. Probably I don't know if it's gonna be his episode that's gonna do it. I'm just I'm curious um.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think we I think we kind of talked about this a little bit as we've been talking about season two in um, you know, here and there as it's come across, I think the wlf crew could really stand from a lot of yes you know massaging and a lot of development, particularly a couple characters obviously abby, but we're gonna get that. Like I'm not worried about abby's, I think they're gonna. I'm I'm preparing for a lot of early abby. I'm expecting a lot of early abby and a lot of ab Abby backstory early in the season to kind of make her more of a less of a specter and less of a mystery and more of a main character and I think to that point.
Speaker 1:You know this is going to be one of those oddities and one of those rarities, like where it's going to benefit that you didn't play the game by the time Abby's character rolls around.
Speaker 2:But I'm gonna let you keep going though um, but yeah, so obviously we're going to get Abby. I am going to subset that with. I think we need a lot of Owen, I think we need a lot of Owen kind of deep diving, because I think that's a character that's really interesting in comparison to a lot of the other WLF Seattle crew. Do we know who's playing Owen? Yeah, Spencer Lord is playing Owen.
Speaker 1:Why do I know Spencer Lord?
Speaker 2:Notable roles are as Nathan Price Jr in the CBC drama series Heartland, he played a character in Family Law. He's appeared in television films and had a role in the series the Good Doctor. So I don't know if you know him from any of those things.
Speaker 1:The Good Doctor. I feel like I might have seen him in for a second.
Speaker 2:He had a recurring role in Heartland and a recurring role in Family Law and he was in two episodes of Riverdale.
Speaker 1:Stephen Lord. Yes, how old is he? 52? No, that can't be him. No, he's 32. Yeah, that can't be him. Spencer Lord, sorry, oh, that's why I was confused. Okay, and you said he was in Riverdale Two episodes of Riverdale. Yeah, yeah, he looks oddly familiar. He looks.
Speaker 2:Riverdale-ish. Yes, we are going to speaking of that. We are going to be seeing some familiar faces in this Danny Ramirez yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Is in this. He's playing Manny. I was really thinking about this casting for this. It's a great cast. Yes, the cast like Isabella Marcet, Danny Ramirez getting in there, Young Mancino, and you always have to pick the one actor from each season that's going to be from the game and getting what's his name.
Speaker 2:Jeffrey Wright.
Speaker 1:Getting Jeffrey Wright is just. It was the one that you needed to get from the game for the season two.
Speaker 2:He was the one that you needed to hold through and Isaac's again, kind of going back to my point about the WLF crew kind of needing a little more expansion, I think Isaac is someone that also needs a lot of expansion, especially if we're going to, because there's going to be such a balancing act with Abby and you have to give her Other than the specter of the antagonistic figure that she sees in her life, you also have to give her a direct antagonist. Yes, and I think you can build Isaac up to being that early, because in the game it kind of manifests a little bit later down the road. But I think you need to kind of set a little bit of a line between Isaac's vision versus the rest of the crew's vision. Yes, because it is different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. It's an execution difference between the two of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean some of like. I think like Manny Manny is obviously kind of all in on. Isaac's vision Right For, like the WLF but like all the others, are kind of a little waffly. Obviously, Isaac Isaac has this cult of personality about him that you know, that you see in a lot of different media and different shows where you know these people feel obligated to him for this, that or another thing right, I mean the Seraphite piece we can go into that and the Scar Queen.
Speaker 1:I think you can use that as probably one of the stronger cold opens, and I was I've been saying this for the longest time since season one came out, because I didn't know that season one was gonna absolutely the the most terrifying thing from season one was the cold open from episode one and episode two were the two most terrifying pieces of the whole show. But you can structure it. I was really thinking about, like, who do you get to play the Scar Queen? I forget the actress's name. She was in Mississippi, masala, and then she was in Fallout. I feel like she would be the perfect Scar Queen to play in this, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:This, like you know, cult-like figure that, right after the ashes of whatever happened on Outbreak Day, like she truthfully became like this god to the, to the people of seattle. Like I really want to see that realized and I want to see isaac's like militaristic way to be, like no, this is an absolute cult. Like this these people are up, they're insane. Like this is like. This is like an insane thing. Like they just rid themselves of all technology they rid themselves of like they're now. They're like they turn themselves into a cult. Like I want to see. I want to see their battle. Like I want to see that as an actual character, because I think they're going to try to, because they I think they released that photo of like the um, like whatever the thing is, like see her vision or whatever the thing is. So I'm really looking forward to that. But jeffrey wright being back as isaac, I think was one of the most important things with this cast. And then I forget what the actor's name is from Beef as well, too. That's playing.
Speaker 2:Oh, young man Zeno, yeah, yeah, he's playing Jesse Yep. Yeah, this cast is absolutely stacked, which is really really great. Yeah, I mean, I guess is there anything that you know? I kind of said my piece, I think, to your point.
Speaker 2:I think the Seattle stuff specifically like who, like the characters in Seattle not necessarily the Seattle stuff, because obviously we're going to get there, but I think the characters that originate out of that Seattle area need a little bit of development in order for this season to work, or not just this season, because, you know, another thing that we need to talk about too is the Last of Us Part II, part two, the game, you know the adaptations being split across two seasons um, this season, which is seven episodes, and then, and then next season, season three, we'll tell the story of the last of us part two, which is a whole nother discussion I think that we have to talk about.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I think the seattle stuff, just in general, just needs a lot more expansion. Um, in order for us, again, I think I think the objective with with the Abby character needs to be to present her as a co-protagonist and not an antagonist, which is how she's positioned in the beginning of the game Come to find out she's actually also a protagonist, but by that point it's a really difficult maneuver to pull off.
Speaker 1:I always talk about. A perspective is everything. You switch the perspective from Abby. I just feel like again, I've been saying it for a few weeks on here you position, you want to talk characters to add Do we know who's playing her dad? Yet no Again. You bring in a notable actor to play her father and you have that person in this season, the whole season.
Speaker 1:in the last episode is the flashback to the right of what happens like which I think they might do yes, you let, and it's like again, that's why to the whole point, like if you really want to like, if I'm like my thematic hopes is like how important perspective is to things like you you flip the perspective and turn joel into like this absolute monster. By the time that season, like the season two finale comes up and then you back. You like the backflow from that is the actual you know her, her killing joel, and it's just like a party who's got to sit there and be like well, she did kill, he did kill her father in cold blood, like he.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I mean not to jump too far ahead on like wild, wild internet speculation, but I think, from like a story perspective, I think, because the way, obviously the way the game does it is that happens first and then they do a lot of backfilling to explain what happened, you know, and why she feels that way, I think the show's gonna do the inverse. I think the show is going to show us her and her dad, then I think the show is going to show us that moment and then we're going to be left feeling like conflicted, as opposed to like this bitch, like she killed Joel, like some people are still going to feel that way and there's nothing wrong with feeling that way either well, some people are going to feel it because they're incels.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, but I mean there's nothing wrong with being angry at her for killing your favorite character. Like there's nothing objectively wrong with that, Like you can be mad at that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, the true test of the season and I don't even want to say true test to Craig Mazin, as if he's not an Emmy Award winningwinning writer is if he can pull off see if he can do this, yeah yeah, he probably can't.
Speaker 1:You're just upset because you're because your gaming dad passed away. Like I want to see how well he pulls off perspective. I want to see how well he pulls off the different point of view of like no, joel walked into that hospital and was an absolute tyrant. He walked into that hospital and did like the most inhumane things Flip the perspective.
Speaker 2:Some crazy person just walked in and took away humanity's last chance at a cure Even if it's a chance, he took it away and it's not just, and that's why it's so important, rightly or wrongly, that he does what he does with the doctors, because you can even write away the idea that he kills all those fireflies, because the fireflies are a militia at the end of the day, and you know they kind of the fireflies are not noble, you know what I mean. They're not some holier-than-thou paladins of the of the apocalypse, you know. I mean, like they've done bad things, they continue to do bad things. So him killing a bunch of fireflies in there is not the heinous act, really. It's the doctors, it's the people that, like, had no skin in the game other than trying to you know, potentially save humanity that's where the line yep is crossed and the second game, it teases it.
Speaker 1:I think a little too much, instead of having it fully realized, is abby's dad should have. It should have been such a point to be like he was the altruistic person that believed that there was a future for tomorrow, which he did, cause you can just kind of, you know, tether things together. But I want to actually like that's a time where you, where you show and tell, like I want him to be, like no, like there is a future, the way, like they're coming, like to save us all, like I want that, like hope for humanity piece, and then this monster, joel, comes and just strips it right away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah for sure. So, yeah, I mean, is there anything you know, kind of like bouncing it back to you, that you want to see like expanded upon?
Speaker 1:I mean, like I said, the Scar stuff. I want to see expanded upon Isaac's backstory a lot I want to see I'm really keen to see them what they do with Tommy. I feel like they're going to give Tommy a lot to do in this season as well.
Speaker 2:Well, I think one of the swept under the rug things like minor changes from the game to the show is Maria's pregnant.
Speaker 1:Maria's pregnant At the end of you know in season one when they go to Jackson, and I think Joel in one of the trailers is holding their child as well too. So that's a pretty significant difference.
Speaker 2:Yep, that's a big change. Tommy's character.
Speaker 1:I mean, one of the bigger things for Tommy's character is that he's ex military as well too. Like, not even X, like Desert Storm, x military. So you know, I think it's such this little small thing of I think they're going to hold this till season three, but when Tommy goes on his like his, you know, his personal revenge John Wick story to go get justice for Joel, like you know, obviously spoilers but he kills, he kills Manny. I can't wait to see that. Like it's going to give somebody really credible.
Speaker 1:Just some other thoughts I had, um, I was, I was always in on Caitlin Deaver playing Abby and then I heard her voice in that trailer and I was like, oh my God, that sounds exactly like her. Like it's absurd. So I, you know, I hope I wish I can put like a shield around Caitlin Deaver for the hate she's about to receive. Like you saw what they're doing to Bella Ramsey now and what they did to her before, like I can only imagine what's going to happen when she kills Pedro Pascal. Like I can only earthly imagine how she's going to be hated for this fictional thing, you weirdos, yeah, yeah. So I mean last last thoughts, I mean last last thoughts, I mean again, just this team. It's absurd. I mean, you know, budgeting-wise and scale-wise, it seems like we're going to have some big like what's the episode of Game of Thrones where it's like one of the most famous episodes of Game of Thrones? I think it's in season, are?
Speaker 2:you talking about Hardhome when they fight the White Walkers?
Speaker 1:No, no, no, it's season seven when they fight the White Walkers. No, no, no, it's season seven when they oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like in season two there's going to be I think there's going to, because this didn't happen in the game there's going to be an assault on Jackson, like that's what I'm really keen to see. That's going to be a massive difference from the game. That doesn't happen in Jackson.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they've. You know the idea that like, oh, you didn't think there were enough infected in season one. I watch this, yeah, so it feels like we're going to get a lot more of that in season two, but I also I did kind of like the scaled back nature of the affected in season one, especially like I love that second episode with the clicker Cause.
Speaker 2:like as a gamer you're like, ah, clicker, who cares? Like you fight 10,000 of them in the game. But like I love how they made like the clicker in episode two of season one like a like a boss battle Like there was, like it was like a real tense, like like this could go south quickly with these things, like they're really even the regular kind of standard running, infected, are presented pretty menacingly. So I'm curious to see if you know. So I'm curious to see if they keep that or if they kind of start making the infected kind of like the walking dead, like the walkers, where they're just kind of like all right, they're dispatched Until we get to. Presumably this is going to be next season, I imagine, because they're probably still figuring out the machinations of how to make the Rat King work in live action.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, the first step to making the Rat King work is having the bloater work.
Speaker 2:That's the first step, which they did, which they did in the season, they did in season one.
Speaker 1:And they did I mean some CG, but some practically.
Speaker 2:The suit was practical. Yeah, which is insane. They put like a giant human inside, yes, like a 400 pound bloater costume Right.
Speaker 1:And I still think they're in season 3 where Abby goes down into the hospital. It's going to be one of the most tense scenes in television.
Speaker 2:It's going to be insane. I'm so curious to see how they pull the Rat King off. If you want to know, just Google the Rat. King, last of Us and look at that I joked when I played the Last of Us Part 2, I was like all of a sudden the Last of Us became a Resident Evil game.
Speaker 1:That thing is nightmare. Fuel it. Resident Evil game Yep, yeah, that thing is nightmare fuel. It's crazy looking man, it's horrifying and it's so smart where they put it in a hospital Like no, this is like this was ground. I love the lore behind it. Oh it's just that.
Speaker 2:It was just this amalgamation of infected that were just festering since, yeah, since day one.
Speaker 1:Literally since day one.
Speaker 2:And it just stayed down there. Yep, they just like coalesced into this monstrosity Like it's very, it is, it's very.
Speaker 2:Resident Evil yes, it is. I mean we can just rip off, like rip through the cast list, you know, obviously, starting starting at the top, pedro Pascal, bella Ramsey, both playing very different versions of these characters from when we left them. Season two picks off five years after season one. We're obviously going to see some of those interspersed years, because some of that stuff is very integral to the plot, seeing kind of how their relationship deteriorates, because that's, you know, even coming off of season one you get that vibe which the game, the games, also do, where they have that final, you know, affirmation of like. Tell me, tell me, everything about the fireflies is true. And Joel says he swears and swear.
Speaker 2:And Ellie gives this kind of noncommittal. Okay, you know, you could either take it as she believes him or take it as she doesn't believe him, but she's going along with it anyway.
Speaker 1:Because that's her father.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the intercut five years becomes very important, because I wonder I guess, going into speculation, I got to imagine that the dance hall stuff is how this first episode is going to end.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Sure, maybe not end, but I imagine it'll be there, the stuff in the dance hall happening, which is kind of like the final straw in Joel and Ellie's relationship is what happens in that dance hall. Sure, so I'd imagine that's probably going to be there, you know, obviously there's the scene with the therapist who was basically the stand-in for Tommy essentially Dude.
Speaker 1:I truthfully believe that they're going to take care of it in episode one. I feel like they're at least going to show the confrontation. I think Joel and Tommy are gonna meet abby in episode one and then each episode they're gonna reveal a layer and a layer until it gets to episode seven oh, so that's how you think they're gonna do it interesting I just feel like it looms the presence for people that have played the game to be like I gotta see how this goes.
Speaker 1:I can't just check out now, like that's probably what they're trying to avoid. Is people checking out because either they hate women or because they're incels, or if they, you know truthfully, are going to be your smallest part of people that are like, oh, I don't want to see Joel die, I'm not going to watch this season. But at least the people that haven't watched the game like to my point earlier, like this might be the only video game adaptation season or thing that you probably don't want the people that have played the game immediately out of the gate, so they just have to go along for this ride Cause again. Like it's going to be like those who know and those who don't know, like Tommy shows Tommy and Joel get Abby and they save her and it's just like what were your names again, and then the episode ends.
Speaker 2:I wonder if they're going to. I wonder if they're gonna take Tommy completely out of that situation.
Speaker 1:No, because I think they want the. What's the actor that plays Tommy's name, gabriel Luna? Yeah, I feel like they want Gabriel Luna on a mad tirade in season 3, because he's that capable of an actor as well too. And to put him against Danny Ramirez and Caitlin Dever as well, I feel like that would be cool.
Speaker 2:I just feel like there's gonna be some type of hook in that sequence that changes, and I just don't know what it is.
Speaker 1:I feel like you. One-for-one that I don't feel like you. Yeah, I feel like that's a one-for-one.
Speaker 2:It could be. The scene itself is probably a one-for-one, but I think to your point. I'm trying to think of ways to kind of work around, not work around, not work around it, but get them all in a room together, but not super early in the season, and maybe like that's the trick, maybe like they get them all in the room together and then we start doing like Abby stuff, like Abby flashback stuff. So by the time we returned to that room we already know why, like what her motivation is, and you're kind of like then you're conflicted. You're like. You're like at first you're conflicted. You're like. You're like at first you're like, oh, like damn, like who is this woman that's got joel like trapped dead to rights?
Speaker 1:and then you know, we kind of explore her backstory and then you go back to that room and all of a sudden you're like oh, well, I mean, to my point, if they are going to do it that way and reveal the layers, that therapy session is going to be equally as important to giving favor to Abby as well, too. To like she's like, like it's going to be like. So you murdered just heaps of people and possibly the only cure for this off emotion, like just because you know now the human race might not survive, for you know X amount of hundreds of years because of you, and you killed this. You know again, to the innocent's point, you just killed this woman's father. For what?
Speaker 2:Or I mean, if you want to massage it a little bit and kind of alter the scene, because that's what could happen and still happen. But you could have Abby and Joel have a bit of dialogue. You know what I mean. Like if Abby just flat out says, like you killed my father, that would leave the viewer going ugh, like you know what I mean, whereas, like in the game obviously she comes across as like this brute Mm-hmm, and Joel is also like a brute Mm-hmm, so he's like whatever speech you have saved, like just get on with it. You know what I mean, but Pedro Pascal's Joel is a little bit more tender.
Speaker 2:He's a little bit more tender Because there's several moments that are like that, like the scene in episode five where he goes up to the sniper and he gives that guy like a chance. He's like, just please, just put your gun down, like I don't want to kill you, like please just put the gun down, and then the sniper goes, you know, for the gun and Joel has to kill him. So there's a tenderness to his character where I feel like him and Abby can kind of chat for hot second before maybe it looks like Manny, that like steps in and is like no, you have to like, you have to do it.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. I could see a situation where that tenderness to Joel's is it's going to be played up in the season. It's because of Ellie, so essentially Ellie's the one that's killing him, because Ellie took away that or she gave it. I don't want to say take away.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's an accident either that Caitlin Dever and Bella Ramsey look very similar to each other, and they both have a kind of youth about them so that when Joel he's going to hesitate, because normal Joel before that would have murdered her without even a second to think even when Joel is at the situation where he's dead to rights, I can see a world where he kind of resigns to it, whereas he resigns to it in the game, but it's more defiant this version.
Speaker 1:you know what it could play as relief he finally gets to. I'm going to take it further than relief it's Penance.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yep Exactly.
Speaker 2:Like there's not. There's an element of that in the game, but like, again, the way Troy Baker voices it and the way the scene's written. He's very defiant and he's very.
Speaker 1:And that's that Joel. That's that Joel to the core, that Joel would always have done that.
Speaker 2:This version of Joel. I feel like there could and again that may help the Abby character a little bit for him to sit there and just kind of accept it and be like you know what. I kind of had this coming. Yeah, you know what I mean, it was bound to catch up to me and it's like he's going to have to look in the mirror too.
Speaker 1:Too, like I killed for her, she's killing for her father. I get it, I can't do anything.
Speaker 2:Like this, is it? And that's the closure in Joel's story that the game didn't necessarily outwardly provide, which I think the show will need to provide in order to make Abby more tolerable? And I think again, the way they built up Pedro's version of Joel, I think, lends itself to that, where he just kind of, and you know what the good thing is, the good thing Eventually, when she does what she does, if this version of Joel resigns to it, it doesn't change anything else.
Speaker 2:Because, Ellie and Tommy are still going to react the way that they're going to react. Regardless of how Joel takes it.
Speaker 1:If Joel is just like nah man, like it's cool, like do what you got to do but like that doesn't mean tommy and ellie have to be cool with it, no, so you and then you know what that's going to play up. The whole theme for the third season, yeah, the cycle of violence theme. That's what the second half of that game really does well in a way.
Speaker 2:Like I think it might be even a little bit smarter if you have joel kind of resigned to and accept it, because then it paints tommy and ellie is like man, like I get why you want revenge, but like joel seemed okay with it, like you guys should kind of let this go, but they're not going to, and I think that's kind of the point. And for abby at the same point it's gonna make her kind of feel a little unfulfilled that like joel didn't go down like begging for his life, like he went down kind of feel a little unfulfilled. Yes, that like Joel didn't go down like begging for his life, like he went down kind of knowing he'd screwed up, mm-hmm, you know.
Speaker 1:Again, I think that's actually so smart to do those therapy sessions, because it's going to start to get revealed that, like, maybe I am the monster, like maybe I am the person that, like I, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm kind of hoping that's kind of the route they go, like I do kind of hope that he kind of resigns to it and kind of gives her like the like a, you got me and be like I kind of deserve it. You know what I mean. Like if you're gonna do it, like do it, but like just know, like it's okay, yeah, like I get it. Um, and then, like I said, that doesn't change anything for ellie or tommy, like they still had to watch him die and they still have every right to be angry and want retribution.
Speaker 2:But for joel, it gives him a nice little, it gives him one bit of closure yeah and then I think the second bit of closure, which the game holds until the very, very end of the game, um, is that he got his closure with Ellie too, and I think you can still hold on to that.
Speaker 2:I don't think you need to move that up any further in the story because that's such a crucial part of the Last of Us. Part II is trying to figure out did Joel and Ellie ever end on bad terms? Is there an unfulfillment there? So I think you can't still hold on to that stuff until the end of the game. But I think you expedite the Abby stuff early with her and her dad and then you kind of tweak the ending a little bit. Well, joel's ending you tweak a little bit to make him a little more resigned to what's about to happen. Right, you know one character I'm a little more resigned to what's about to happen.
Speaker 1:Right, you know, one character I'm really thinking about is Dina, I think.
Speaker 2:Dina is one of the more, the more interesting characters. We should talk about Dina a lot. Yeah, she's obviously super critical.
Speaker 1:She's not only physically critical, she's emotionally critical, she's thematically critical.
Speaker 1:She's one of the more interesting characters in this whole universe is Dina, because it's this catalyst, that kind of it's the reverse, like she's if, if Joel dying is the fuse, dina's like the the technician to stop the bomb, like she's the one that's always kind of just like I love how like happy-go-lucky Dina is as well too, and again, she's such a good person to have counter Ellie and Ellie's descent and Ellie's descent and season and the second game is just, it's so masterfully done in my opinion it's something you you know.
Speaker 1:Again, if you want to talk about the structure of the second game being off, I mean those, one of those are one of the things you want to focus on, like because they do such a good job of making sure that Ellie is a critical, a credible, playable character that people want to play with, and then they take it away from you, like that's the thing that, like I will say, is a little tough. But dina's character is so dynamic in that sense of like she's such this grounding force for ellie, so it's like if something happens to dina, it's an extension of something happening to ellie. It's like that's such a great character and I think isabella marcette is an inspired choice as well too Like she feels such like this, like nice calming presence along. Like you know we saw that scene where Ellie's singing as well too and like I just know there's going to be some heartbreaking. I mean, you want to talk about, you know, and obviously we're talking character, but just to go along with that set design.
Speaker 2:And this just looks absurdly great for this season. Yeah, I mean, we saw that. We saw kind of the sneak peek of it with episode six of last season, where we weren't expecting to go to Jackson at all and then they just gave it to us.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I was like I was floored, like it was flawless. Like it was they pulled? It's like they pulled it right out of the game. Yeah, that was one of the most mind-bending parts of season one. To me was going properly into Jackson, because I was like wait a second.
Speaker 2:And that's how I knew. They were obviously very, very strongly hinted that we were going to get a season two and they were going to adapt the last of us part two, because they gave us the whole Jackson set and then segwaying that to the Seattle stuff um which we are going to see. So you know that's. That's why I'm saying, like you know, you obviously can't. The game is told non-linearly. I expect the show to also be told non-linearly, but also be told non-linearly differently.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you can't just do seven episodes of Ellie on her revenge tour.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:And then save all the Abby stuff until next season.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:You have to do both this season. You have to. And then where you end the season, I don't think you the natural again. This is where, like, show people and game people are gonna like kind of not argue but there's gonna be like I think game people feel the natural stopping point for the episode seven of the season is the movie theater and then flipping because they're thinking like game brain no no but that's that's.
Speaker 1:You can't no, that's not where, that's not. No, that's not too much, that's not climactic enough to have for season storytelling. That like and this is thinking bigger picture it's like thinking of like a studio head. A studio head doesn't want to end this thing at a movie theater and then it be over. No, a studio head's gonna say end this with jo Joel's death. Like, end this with Joel's death or you end it with. You can end it with Joel's death, you can end it with whatever this Jackson Assault on Jackson's going to be.
Speaker 2:You know what I would love, and they're not going to do this. But I would kind of like what you were saying about, like kind of Abby backstory, like, and you get like episode seven. We're back in the cabin, we know what all these characters are about and you don't know what Abby's going to do. Maybe Abby just lets him go Like you know what I mean. Like you play with it, play with it a little bit and then that way, like she does what she does and you're like like we did all this, we did all this. We thought maybe they come to a common understanding. We spent so much time in this cabin, in this room with each other and maybe she's just going to let him go. She's a protagonist. We've built her up now that she's a protagonist type character. We kind of like her. At least that's kind of the hope.
Speaker 1:You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean we kind of like her. Maybe she just lets Joe go and then no, she doesn't. And you're like, you know what I mean. But I mean they're not going to do that Because obviously us, knowing what we know, we know that Seattle is in this season.
Speaker 1:We know.
Speaker 2:Ellie and Dina are going to be in Seattle.
Speaker 1:That's why I think this whole thing is going to be like a broken Not broken but non-linearly told Again, not broken but non-linearly told Again. Like you said, to your point, you get them in the cabin for episode seven, just get them all in the cabin and you have all the themes that were playing throughout the season go right to a head. So that way, like I said, you physically see Abby, joel, tommy and then all their friends all around and they just had this big thing. It will help with the Jackson stuff. It'll help make me feel for the Jackson stuff too Physically.
Speaker 1:It's going to help Tommy's character too earlier, because obviously in the second half of the game Tommy's character is like a madman. But it'll help his character. It'll help the emotionality of the Jackson scene itself and caring about all these people from Jackson. But then, like I said, you hit right to episode seven. You're in that cabin and like it's the thing, it's like the gamers who know, they know, and that keeps everybody stuck around. And then again you want to talk about the studio has. It's like I need a big bang, you want to talk about the biggest bang you can get, but again you're flashing forward to an incident that you know happens, and that's the reason that they're in Seattle.
Speaker 2:Do you think there's any possibility that they start Ellie and Dina in Seattle and you don't know why they're there?
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, I think that's actually. You know what. I'm going to go as far as you said that to a probability, again, it's going to be like Abby's already going to be on this revenge tour this whole time. Ellie's going to be on this revenge tour this whole time. Ellie's going to be on her revenge tour. But you're like, why is everybody so mad?
Speaker 2:Why is everybody? I don't know why. I just thought of that, but I was like, because this whole time I'm consumed by my own knowledge of seeing photos and this, that and the other thing, I have not been able to square like man. They're in Seattle. How do you navigate the Joel stuff? Give it enough time to let Pedro Pascal earn his paycheck and keep him around but also get Ellie and Dina into Seattle. I couldn't until like literally just now, I was like I don't know how you square those two things. Start them there.
Speaker 1:Put them there. Put them there and don't explain why they're there. You really want to get active. To start this show, you put Ellie you know what you could do out of the gate. I just don't know how it helps. Jesse's character is the only one that gives me fear, for you really want to get active early. You do that. Ellie versus Abby fight in the first episode and then you try to break that thing down of why these two are just vehemently hate each other for for this whole thing, and so starts the cycle of violence. And it's the whole thing. Cycles, a lot of cycles. You don't know where they start. I think that would be an interesting theme to play on of like we don't know where this all started until the end oh, that's interesting, wow, and you don't even need to necessarily do the Jesse thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't need to kill Jesse there.
Speaker 2:No, you can start them in that boiler room and they're just throwing hands and you're like what is happening? Where's Joel? Yeah, where's Joel? Oh man, that's really interesting. I would love that. I don't know if that's what they're gonna do.
Speaker 1:But no, I don't think caitlin deaver took her wheaties yet. I think next season she's gonna be yoked.
Speaker 2:But that's a really cool idea, like you just start them in the middle of the fight and you're like what is happening and then you just start right throwing, throwing flash. Everyone gets a flashback. Yeah, it's a. I mean, that's a really man.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting, huh, yeah yeah, I can see that you ever seen manchester by the sea before. That movie's told non-linearly. That's probably one of the better movies that's told non-linearly, so hard to do it is. It's one of the most difficult screen right, though.
Speaker 2:That's why not every movie tried it, the witcher tried it, yeah, which you tried it in season one and it was very confusing it.
Speaker 1:It's tough Atomic Blonde is done nonlinearly, or Atomic Blonde starts at the beginning of the third act, which I think is a smart thing to do. Why not do the same thing? You start them in the movie theater Like we were just joking about it. You don't end them. Maybe you start them in the movie theater and then, like you know, they have their fight and then you know Abby's like I never want to see your face again, and then it just jumps back to the beginning back to Jackson Eight months earlier.
Speaker 2:Eight months earlier, or whatever, yeah, however, long.
Speaker 1:I never want to see your face again. Why, why, why.
Speaker 2:The crowd said do it. That'd be a really cool way to do it. I do. Yeah, I think some of that Seattle stuff is going to end up front-loaded for some reason, because you can't do it the way that the game did it and expect people to just be okay with it. It's an Abby problem.
Speaker 1:That's the thing. It's an Abby problem.
Speaker 2:So I think, if you start, if you do something in Seattle, it's the whole point about your credible villain.
Speaker 1:You set your villain up to be credible from the jump and then this show's job for the rest of those rest of six episodes is to be like wait Abby's actually not the villain. Maybe Joel was the villain the whole time Question mark. Maybe there's no villain in this thing at all.
Speaker 2:No, I mean the most villainous character that you get in Last House, part II, is Isaac.
Speaker 1:Is it Isaac or is it the Seraphites?
Speaker 2:I mean they're both kind of two sides of the same coin, Same coin yeah. I was going to go back to your Dina point and kind of like dovetailing off my Owen point. I think they need to position Owen and Dina as kind of two sides of the same coin, to kind of ground.
Speaker 1:They're grounding forces.
Speaker 2:Because Owen, again that's one of like, not my complaints about part two, but I think that character could have stood for a little more oomph.
Speaker 1:I think also, owen being like this, you know, like this he needs to have this like a further connection to her father as well too. So when she looks at Owen, she thinks of her father, she thinks of the goodness of humanity and how she doesn't have that because that's the problem, that's the like, it's not an abby problem, but it's an abby's crew problem.
Speaker 2:Like a lot of those characters are pretty undercooked. Yeah, yep, um, which is not anyone's fault, it's just you know, you only have so much time to tell a story.
Speaker 2:But I'm hoping the show, weirdly enough, even though like hour wise, it might work out like you might put more hours into the game that you put into the show, or like character wise, because like 90 of the video game is the hours spent is playing the game like it's gameplay you know what I mean whereas, like, the show is obviously like, if you want to consider it like a video game, like 100 cinematics yeah, you know, there's no gameplay element, so you can spend a lot more time with these other characters and kind of cook them up a little bit more, right um, you know, and and a lot of these wlf characters have interesting backstories yeah, like, uh, mel being mel being pregnant, it's a.
Speaker 1:It's a good counter to dina being pregnant as well too. There's point to the both of them being pregnant at the same time and abby's restraint against dina later in that game. And look what ellie did, and again, that's why I'll preach this to the end of the day. That's why perspective is anything. Ellie, to their perspective, just came in and murdered Mel. That group would be equally as rightfully so, angry at what she did, just to the point where, for us, if Ellie's our point of view, obviously Dina was about to be murdered. So you hate Abby, but like Ellie killed Mel, like who was pregnant, like, and Ellie knew after she did it as well too. And again we.
Speaker 1:I don't know why I just thought about this, thinking about the third season, and because the Santa Clara stuff was gonna dominate probably the most of the third season, I don't know why I was thinking about, like you start that season with Ellie sitting in the water at the end of the game. Like you start it right there, she's just sitting in the water. That's the opening shot to the third season. It's the closing shot to the third season as well, to third and five. I don't think you get the last of us for three seasons. You probably got to do more.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's. I mean I guess that's also the they haven't said that the third season is going to be in the final season. They just said it's getting a third season, um, and we know that it's going to be another seven episode continuation of the last of us, part two, Um, so we don't, we don't know and I think that's that's cool, like I'm glad that we don't know also um, you think logic's going to game in another season, hopefully, hopefully he shows up.
Speaker 2:It's the most important character you can bring from the game to the, to the show. I mean just from a pure, I guess just action standpoint too. I'm really curious to see the reaction to the seraphites yeah just just from a, just from an action perspective because, they're in the, they're horrifying they suck, they suck to fight.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I hate fighting them.
Speaker 2:Man, they come out of nowhere, nowhere, yep.
Speaker 1:You hear that one whistle.
Speaker 2:It's terrifying, you're like hello, absolutely horrifying. None of the environments you fight them in are ever well lit, no. So I'm just curious from that perspective how they do that. And Craig Mazin, curious from that perspective, like how they do that. Um, because you can draw, you can, and craig mazen, obviously, coming off of this, coming off of chernobyl, is a master of, yes, suspense, yep, um, so I'm curious to see because you know, I did some, did some digging into directing and writing of the season. Craig mazen's pen was in every script of every episode of this season. Um, which I think is cool, um, he's directing episode one of this season, so he's directing the premiere, much like he did last season and we all know how insane that opening to that premiere was.
Speaker 2:That first episode has a sauce in it that lets you. You know, all the credit in the world to all the directors of season one, but that first episode has, like there's some hardware in the cabinet of the man who directed this episode there's levels to this.
Speaker 2:So I'm really curious and I'm just knowing his background. I'm very curious to know what is going to be in this first episode, given where he comes from, like given his what he directs or has. Obviously he's directed like comedy stuff in the past, but the last few years have been relegated. He's done this kind of like thriller, suspense type stuff. So that's also makes me curious to see what he's got cooked for this episode. And then Neil Druckmann is directing episode six. I don't know if you can gleam a lot from that of seeing where Druckmann's being deployed.
Speaker 1:You know what it's going to be and you know what. I think they're going to hold Joel's death to the last episode, which I guess isn't an insane point. It's going to be the flashback episode of them going to the museum. That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:That makes a lot of sense. So episode 6, we don't know the titles of any of these episodes besides this one. Episode one is going to be titled future days um episodes. All the other episodes don't have their titles out um neil druckman's directing episode six. That was co-written by druckman, hayley gross who co-wrote the game last of us part two, and craig mason, so that that trio co-wrote the final two episodes of the season.
Speaker 1:You know what you could do to my point, if episode six because it just makes sense that if Druckmann's going to write it it's going to be it's either going to be because last season he did Left Behind it could be the Isaac episode, like an Isaac-centric Abby Isaac-centric episode, because that's a big portion of this that we didn't talk about. Like, he seems very villainous in this, seems like it captured, one of the seraphites is just torturing them. You know what you could do. If you're gonna do the museum piece, you could do the abby and her father patrolling around seeing that zebra is like a. They're like two, again to the point, the two sides of the same coin in the same episode. So it humanizes everybody.
Speaker 2:Before we get to the finale, yeah, yeah, I think there, I think there is a lot to. Maybe not the director allocation, but the writing allocation. I think that trio of druckman, gross and mazen co-writing the final two episodes, kind of, I think, scores, scores, points in your favor that they're gonna hold the joel thing till the end of the season because I just think druckman and gross, having co-written the second game, would kind of want their pens on that scene.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean. You know not that it's not that they don't trust craig mazen, because of course they do, but I just think that they would. You know, it's kind of like the like I'm willing to die on my sword for this type deal. So like, hey, if we're gonna adapt that scene we want you know we wrote the game it should be it should be our pens that are on those scripts for for that, for those scenes.
Speaker 2:So, um, having that that trio writing the final two episodes makes me think that you're probably right. But at least the, the actual act of Joel's death, will occur in episode seven. Um, whether or not we get to that scene and that stage earlier, I guess, remains to be seen. Right, um, so, yeah, I mean, let's talk. I guess we can talk about Bella Ramsey a little bit. Um, can we kind of talk about Pedro a little bit and kind of where Joel is that and where he'll be going this season? We kind of talked about Pedro a little bit and kind of where Joel is at and where he'll be going this season. I think we've beat that horse to death, Come on, man.
Speaker 2:So Bella Ramsey? Not through any of her own doing, but I feel like a lot of people feel like she's got a lot to prove this season. For what? Because she doesn't look old, I guess. Give me a break.
Speaker 1:Give me a break. She doesn't, I guess. Give me a break, give me a break.
Speaker 2:She doesn't look angry enough.
Speaker 1:Give me a break, give me an absolute break. This is going to be my, this is going to be in defense of Bella Ramsey and their just absolute ability that they have. I mean, did we just ignore episode eight of the Last of Us season one? Did that just never happen? How everybody was like this performance isn't good. Did that just never happen? She has the mean streak and we talked about that before the mean streak that Ellie has when she goes into the second game.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's not even seeing her in the Last of Us, but seeing her in Thrones, when she plays little Lyanna Mormont and she's commanding this room of grown A-men you know what I mean and she fights a giant.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Kills said giant and is angry and defiant and has fire about her.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I didn't need to see her in the Last of Us before I understood why she was cast, and then she was phenomenal in the first season.
Speaker 1:I find it absolutely absurd. I find it absolutely absurd that anybody has any reservation about her for this season and she didn't in the first season, in the first game.
Speaker 2:Ellie never needed that type of fire. She has it, she throws it out, in the form of her humor, basically. But now it's kind of channeled in a different way and I don't think there's no reason to think that Bella Ramsey can't get there Right and at the end of the day she can't help her appearance, she can't help that she's youthful looking.
Speaker 1:There's a different conversation that goes with that. Yeah, that I don't even want to get into because it's just. It shows you how disgusting that you know people and men can be. But I don't even want to get to there because it's just. It's a disgusting thing that people I've heard, I've literally physically seen with my own eyes and the internet complain about so I mean from a performance standpoint, I think I'm very, very excited to see how she's about to have probably one of the best TV performances for this season.
Speaker 1:I don't even have concern about it. I have concern about nobody on this cast. I feel like everyone on this cast is going to be phenomenal. Out of everybody, gabriel Luna. I'm really keen to see what he does this season.
Speaker 2:We're going to see a lot more of him.
Speaker 1:And then Isabella Marced the two of them I really want to see what he does this season. And then Isabella Mar said the two of them I really want to see a lot out of. And then Caitlin Deaver is Abby. I think again was such an inspired choice and it was there, but when I heard her voice I was like, oh yeah, that that's Abby, Like that's actually her.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know, like I said, from Bella Ramsey perspective, like I'm just excited to kind of like how the game does it, where I'm excited to kind of see her kind of take the wheel and kind of take over as our protagonist. Obviously, pedro Pascal is going to be in this. I imagine he's going to be in this more than he was in the game yeah, it's Pedro Pascal.
Speaker 2:I'm willing to bet you're going to see a lot more of Joel in this season of the show than you did in the Last of Us Part II the game. I just I would imagine. But I think they're going to do what the Last of Us Part II did and make Bella Ramsey and Caitlin Dever basically the main characters of this. And yeah, I mean going to your Gabriel Luna point about Tommy. Tommy, like I said, I think the decision to make Maria pregnant looms large over Tommy's story going into the Last of Us Part 2 or Season 2, because that is a tether that he didn't have in the game.
Speaker 2:So it makes his decision to do what he does a little more interesting, yeah, and I'm curious to see how that plays out, right?
Speaker 1:I think his character has so much left to say too, as and that's gonna. That excites me a lot, and again it gives it an extra dimensionality that he now has a son. And now this son knows joel and maria knows joel and maria knows, you know, joel's surrogate daughter, like all these things are gonna, you know, be key factors. And maria is not incapable as well too. That's one of my favorite parts. Maria's not an incapable human being. I think they're going to play that up a little bit too. Again, now that I'm thinking about it, looking at the trailer, looking back, that assault on Jackson, whatever that's going to be, whatever episode that's, that whole thing's gonna be. That's probably gonna be the huge. What episode of of house of the dragon last season was the one, um, where agon got burned to death?
Speaker 2:or near death. I think it was episode four.
Speaker 1:Yes, episode four. I feel like that's gonna be very similar where, like this is like you guys have been waiting. This is the big action set piece full episode of like jackson's under attack yeah, that'd be cool, because we didn't really get it in season one got it a little bit in episode six or sorry episode five. Five yeah with Henry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little tiny, yeah, a little mini skirmish right of like a horde of infected that kind of just overrun that little, I think they were cognizant of some things.
Speaker 1:I think they were cognizant of like and again like, I still adore season one of this show and like I love the approach they took to the infected. But again, scale grows. If your show grows, it's just the natural progression and this is going to be it's understanding of that. So, action wise, it looks incredible. Just the set pieces and the sets that they built. Like, season 1 was already masterful. Season 2, I don't know how you look better than Season 1 did. Season 1 visually looks incredible. Season 2 looks even better, which is insane. So I can't wait to see it. The second game to your point you always talk about this how technically sound that second game is.
Speaker 1:It's one of the smoothest gaming experiences you could ever have. I don't want to call it a shooter, but like a it's an action game it's one of the single best gameplays you can have it's mechanically nearly flawless you've seen people running on the internet. They do their speed runs. It's the way they were able to creatively do their you can play that game any way.
Speaker 2:It's crazy and that's a testament. Were able to creatively do their.
Speaker 2:You can play that game any way that you want to. It's crazy. That's a testament not to get too bogged down in talking about the game, but it's a testament to how mechanically sound the game is, how ridiculously intuitive the level design is, that you can pretty much play the game however you want. If you want a running gun, you can run and gun. If you want to do stealth, only you can pretty much play the game however you want, like you can. If you want to run and gun, you can run and gun. If you want to do stealth, only you can do stealth only. If you want to rely on like traps in the environment, you can do that Like it's. That game doesn't get enough credit for its intuitiveness and its level design. So, yeah, I mean, that's, that's all I wanted to say. Um, I mean I guess we could talk a little bit about just the early reviews that have come out.
Speaker 1:Yes, let's get after it.
Speaker 2:It's been pretty good, not kind of you know I'm not sugarcoating or kind of just in summation, people have been really really high, like critics who have seen I guess they've seen the entire season, these critics, it sounds like.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, people saw all seven episodes, which is insane.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they say a couple things. Challenging expansion that retains its predecessor's superb performance and similitude, sets a new standard, post-apocalyptic television at its peak. Reviewers played action, sequences, direction, performances, production, design and writing, though some criticized pacing and consider the story incomplete Because it is Critics. Critics, probably not Critics, understandably, probably not familiar with the Last of Us. Part 2, the video game.
Speaker 2:To understand that this is Part 1 of Part 2, right? So you know I'm bracing for those Kind of critiques, saying like, oh well, they left off on a cliffhanger. Yeah, yeah, it's going to because, because they're not telling the you know the whole story of the second game within the confines of the season. So but yeah, I mean I mean critically, it seems to be reviewing very, very well, so we'll see. Yep, I think yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean Any like, not weird, but like any like outside of the box. Let's do this. Any cold opens you want for the season.
Speaker 2:I want you to get creative Because obviously episode one and two were extremely creative. Yeah, I think I don't know if it's necessarily creative, but I want to see like I want to see the Seraphite thing. I want to see like I want to see the Seraphite thing. I want to see how that starts. I'd be cool if they told the whole Seraphite story through cold opens.
Speaker 1:That would be really cool. The whole WLF versus Seraphite thing would be really insane.
Speaker 2:Like if they told the Seraphite story just through cold opens. Like you just get a little bit of lore at the beginning of every episode of like what's going on with them and then like, maybe by the time you get to them in present day, like they're not, they're not who the like the cold opens have built them up to be and then by the time you get to their actual reveal, it's they're like, completely like, this is not what I thought this was at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I want to see is I want to see the horror of, not day one, I want to see the horror of day two. So how you use that is I want you to follow. You got Jeffrey right. You use Jeffrey right. You use the horror of what happened on day two of the outbreak and you have Jeffrey right Be this military leader and happened on day two of the outbreak.
Speaker 1:And you have Jeffrey Wright be this military leader and you have him be the one that he's working for Fedra out of, not Fed they didn't know it was Fedra yet, but he's working for the military in one of these cold opens and obviously that develops into, you know, him taking WLF. But I just want, I just want to see Jeffrey, jeffrey Wright as, just as Isaac, in this cold open and it's just like the terror of day two, like the absolute terror of what's happening, just like you know I really love. I wanted to. I want to find a calm one too, because obviously the opening to episode one is a very calm one of like everyone's fine, unless the earth gets a little warmer and everybody is watching like huh.
Speaker 2:And then everything's not fine. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm really curious to see if they keep that mechanic of the cold opens, Because they kind of they just stopped doing them like midway through the first season, yeah, so it just felt like they were doing it as like a I don't know like a stage setter, which I think the season could benefit from. Mm-hmm, you know.
Speaker 1:It adds to the realism of the whole thing, and that's what I'm thinking of. And that's what I'm thinking of, like, obviously we saw it from a scientific perspective. I want to see it in season two from a military perspective.
Speaker 2:That's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like how the military immediately responded to the end of the world. Like what is? Like obviously I talked about Paradise Like we saw it from like a world leader perspective, like an American world leader perspective, like I want to see the end of the world through like a military perspective. I want to see the end of the world through a military perspective.
Speaker 2:You know what I want to see. Now that I'm thinking about it, I want to see Fallout of the hospital.
Speaker 1:That would be again. You want to talk about setting horror for, like I said, people are rolling into the hospital and people are getting more violent and more aggressive and everybody's like, oh, you know what would be insane. Maybe you put Abby's dad in a hospital in this cold open, and have him, just you know, doing all the things and just everything's just going up in smoke and he finds a way out after everything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because obviously abby wasn't born by then yeah so that would be really interesting so I want to see that, I'd like to see some. I'd like to see some like I want to see some reaction to Joel's decision, maybe some fallout of it yeah, like I want to see, like what, what happened to, not the world, but what happened to, like the Fireflies, you know?
Speaker 1:that was their one big fight was to find the cure like.
Speaker 2:What is the like? What's? What's the repercussions for that decision beyond just Personal, which we never really exploit In the game? We don't know what the effect on the greater world is Because of what Joel did, but how many?
Speaker 1:people knew. I mean they can explore that. How many people knew that this was like? Because Marlene's dead? Marlene was the leader of the Fireflies at that time. I mean you could conceivably whip up a survivor. Yeah, well, it's the nurses. He doesn't kill the nurses, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then just seeing the devastation that he ushered on that hospital. You get it a little bit in the game. Abby walks that corridor.
Speaker 1:But it's more personal, it's like yeah.
Speaker 2:But you don't see 50 bodies shooting throughout this hospital, being like oh Jesus, and then you don't get the kind of repercussion on the world as a result of that decision. Right, like, maybe you have someone throw in there, like you know, have someone in the hospital, just go in there and just be like man. This was our only shot. Now we're back to square one or something like that there's.
Speaker 1:There's not even back to square one. There is no square. There's no other human being on this planet that we know that happened to yeah.
Speaker 2:So maybe you double down on that like maybe, and then you're just left sitting there like oh shit, you know what? You know what I mean? You're like oh God.
Speaker 1:I mean, the argument always goes with this game of like there was Joel Wright for what he did and like. The other half of the argument is just like how would they have mass produced this cure? Like how would they have, yeah, logistics of it?
Speaker 2:How could it have worked? But I mean my argument against that is always like you'll never know. Now, yeah, you know what I mean. He took that away and you know. It's not even a matter it's micro and macro levels of right and wrong, because anyone in Joel's position would have done what he did?
Speaker 1:You saw Druckmann, they tested it when he was talking about season one. They said they had gamers play the game and then they were like it was like a split of people that said, like Joel is right, Joel is wrong. And then they had parents play the game and every single parent said Joel was right for what he did. Like there you go, Like there it is for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah but I would like to see some fallout of that, because I think that again would put the viewer in a position being like oh, you know what I mean. Again would put the viewer in a position being like oh, you know what I mean. Like man, he made that decision, you know, I understood it. But at the same time now I'm sitting with the fact that he potentially ended all opportunity for this to just be over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he might have ended the human race, just point blank.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I mean that's another interesting thing that I would like to see, like maybe they tell that, maybe they tell that in this first episode, maybe this first episode deals with that, like shows shows the aftermath of joel's rampage and just being like, oh shit, right, you know what I mean. And maybe we keep going back to that moment, like maybe we do like a micro macro level of like this was his effect on the world, but this was also his effect on abby, right, you know? I mean, like I think that would be a really interesting. The abby stuff to me is the most interesting. Yes, stuff in this entire.
Speaker 1:It's the biggest bang or bust that you can ask for and the whole season storytelling the whole season rides on yeah is, it is if this can work. Right, which, you know, based on a lot of reviews, because I do think some of those reviews were probably you know, I'm sad Joel died, you know. So the people that are giving it good reviews, I feel like they did a good job at whatever they. It feels that way.
Speaker 2:Because I feel like if it didn't, people would think that this isn't working, like they would think the show just didn't work and the fact that people are so high on it seemingly is. I think it worked.
Speaker 2:I think, whatever alterations they made to how they tell Abby's story, it feels like it's going to work. And that was always my question. The game does it in a very game way of the sense that, hey, we're introducing this character, we want you to think that she's the villain, and now we're going to put you in her shoes. And that's a very interesting conundrum for a gamer, because you're like oh, I don't like this Because you're worried about the game experience You're worried about.
Speaker 1:I just did so much story. I thought I was hunting this person. Yeah, I gained so many resources as ellie and now I have to restart from zero. But like I hated that story sure storytelling in a tv show perspective. You're like, wait, this guy really did murder her father.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it sucks like that's horrible yeah, so I, I, that's how the alteration to abby's story was always going to be the most interesting thing to me. It continues to be the most interesting thing to me until I start seeing it. And then I'm going to be like, oh okay, like we're on a good path here. Yeah, I mean I just I'm super keen on how this is going to play out. And then I mean just going down, you know, down kind of like the cast list, so we have Catherine O'Hara, just kind of highlighting some new characters. So Catherine O'Hara is playing Gail, who is Joel's therapist, the aforementioned therapist. She's also Eugene's wife.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's a big change from the game.
Speaker 2:Yes, Speaking of Eugene Joe.
Speaker 1:The weed farmer Eugene played by Joey Petz Yep.
Speaker 2:Joey Petz Aloniano is playing Eugene, which I think is inspired. Casting.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:He is not in the game. He is mentioned. He's seen in photographs. He is notoriously lauded by Ellie as being the first person in human history to die of natural causes in this apocalypse. Maybe not the first person, but you get the idea of.
Speaker 1:I like it.
Speaker 2:He got to go out, you know, on his own terms. Right, we have a couple of original characters. We have Alana Ubach playing a character named Hanrahan, which I don't know. I don't know, is that giving Seraphite vibes to you? It could. She is known as she played Serena McGuire in you. It could. She is known as she played Serena McGuire in Legally Blonde. Yeah, so she's been in stuff Interesting the name Hanrahan could be. It could go either way. She could be like a WLF person, lieutenant Hanrahan.
Speaker 2:Or she could just be a Seraphite. And then there's a couple other minor characters that are original characters, and then everyone else is kind of like our core cast Right. Yeah, again, I'm really excited to see them. I just want to see what they do with Abby's crew.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's her name's playing from the game Whoever Ellie kills.
Speaker 2:Nora.
Speaker 1:Nora. Isn't she playing the main character of Intergalactic?
Speaker 2:Yes, that actress is playing her in the show, right? It's not. She didn't play her in the game.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's right. I forget the actress that played her in the game.
Speaker 2:But she is going to be the main character of Intergalactic Right. She was also in what do I know her?
Speaker 1:from. She was in.
Speaker 2:Uncharted. She was in Uncharted. Yes, she was in Uncharted. She was also in. She's also been in you. She's one of the main characters of of you. Um, I know her from the hundred. That's what I know her from too. Um, and then, yeah, she's playing nora in the last of us. She is playing jade in mortal combat too, nice, cool. Um, yeah, so she's in this. Who is the actress playing mel?
Speaker 1:I wonder if they're just because she wasn't that actress in agents of shield as well too. The who, the actress that played Mel, was in Agents of SHIELD.
Speaker 2:She was in. She was not in Agents of SHIELD, she was in the Runaways. She played Gert.
Speaker 1:The actress that plays Mel. Didn't they take the mocap from the woman that was in Agents of person?
Speaker 2:They do look very similar. I'm looking at her photo on Wikipedia and she looks very similar to the character from the game. But yeah, the character playing her in the show is the character that played Gert in Runaways Nice Channel favorite, the Runaways. Okay, we should review that show one of these days. Yes, I would actually love to do that, if we can find it, is it even available anymore to watch?
Speaker 1:Yes, love to do that if we can find it is even like available anymore, like to watch. Yes, it's on. I think it's back on disney plus, is it, I believe? So I'm checking right now. I think it's back on disney plus. There's a whole bunch of things that we want to retroactively review, like maybe we do the young adult sect of the of of the mcu. Yeah, we could do it. We could do a triple Miss Marvel, miss Marvel Runaways, miss.
Speaker 2:Marvel.
Speaker 1:Cloak and Dagger, but seriously just the Cloak and Dagger slash Runaways episode. But man, I remember when Runaways was coming out. That was some good week to week television. I was locked in week to week why is this show only on Hulu?
Speaker 2:question mark, you would ask yourself. And then who else? Oh, danny Ramirez, the Falcon himself. Good, would ask yourself um, and then who else? Oh, danny ramirez, the falcon himself. Yep, um, good, good, good, uh, good couple years for him yeah, great couple years for him too.
Speaker 1:He's an avenger now. He's an avenger now. He was in top gun. He was in top gun. Presumably gonna be in the next top gun it could be fan somehow.
Speaker 2:Fanboy returned yep, of course he returned he was in an episode of Black Mirror back in the day.
Speaker 1:I really like Danny Ramirez. He just seems like a cool guy it's cool too.
Speaker 2:I like the oscillation of like I was in this major motion picture. Now I'm also in this prestige TV show, like I'm glad that some of these actors are not like. No, I'm not doing a TV show, are you crazy?
Speaker 1:I'm the falcon he seems like he's always down for a good time that some of these actors are not like. No, I'm not doing a TV show, Are you?
Speaker 2:crazy. I'm the Falcon. He seems like he's always down for a good time. I'm also curious because he is so likable as Joaquin Torres. I'm curious to see him as Manny who's not as likable.
Speaker 1:No, manny sucks, he doesn't suck.
Speaker 2:That's the other thing. Going back to my point, maybe give some of these guys some dimensionality, make me want to like them.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I don't want this to be the game situation. The game is the game. The game did what it did Set them up as this antagonistic faction. We don't have to do that in the show.
Speaker 1:It's going to help in the long run, because that's one of the big points that I always want to make. It's not about them being the villains, there's no villain in this thing.
Speaker 2:We already saw an antagonistic faction in this series. We saw it in season one with the freaking the kansas city crew. Yeah, they were in an antagonistic faction. Right, they were born by you know an unfortunate event when henry sold out like the one good person henry was judas henry was the that, that guy that led that group.
Speaker 2:like was the that guy that led that crew. Like was the one good person in that crew. But, like we already saw, like a bad faction. We don't need another bad faction. Right, give us a faction that like does bad things, but also, like some of these characters are kind of okay.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know, and it's okay if you want to leave Manny as like the loose cannon. Yeah, Every crew needs a loose cannon, Right? You know, I like the way that they're positioning, hopefully, anyway, like they're positioning Ellie's crew and Abby's crew as like two sides of the same coin. Yes, you have Ellie, you have Abby, you have Dina, you have Owen, you have Manny, you have Tommy. You know what I mean. Like put them, you know, put them like across from each other and hold the mirror up and be like we're the same you and I.
Speaker 1:It's going to help for season three because that Santa Clara stuff is so jarring in season three.
Speaker 2:And then we haven't even talked.
Speaker 1:I mean, presumably we're not going to because I don't think there's even a cast for him, but Lev yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's so integral to the Abby stuff.
Speaker 1:Who's Lev's sister as well. Oh, I don't remember the character's name, yara. Yeah, yara and Lev, two very important characters. And again, I've always pitched this idea of Ellie and Abby have to team up for the Last of Us, part III, and then somehow they have to fight up for the Last of Us, part 3, and then somehow they have to fight. Who would sign on to this franchise? But none other than Jon Bernthal would be the antagonist of 3.
Speaker 2:He's begging to be in this.
Speaker 1:He's begging to tell somebody something in this franchise. Let me tell you something. He would be. He would look at a clicker to its face and say let me tell you something. Let me tell you something, man.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you something. John Bernthal in the Last of Us universe would be just sensational. I don't know who I have to talk to to make that happen.
Speaker 1:I know Druckmann's listening, he should be, and I know he's making the Last of Us, but stop lying, stop saying you're focused on Intergalactic. He's.
Speaker 2:Bernthal In this universe, oh God. Let me tell you something.
Speaker 1:Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something, man.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you something. He'd be great.
Speaker 1:He'd be great. Imagine debating ethics in a post-apocalyptic world with Jon Bernthal. He'd be tremendous. Funny enough, Debra Ann Wall would also be phenomenal in this universe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, but yeah, it's one of the things that I didn't think about as much. But I'm like oh yeah, they didn't cast Lev in this season. I think on purpose, yeah, which again kind of leans into where is this going to end? You know what I mean. I think we've settled that it is going to end. I think we've settled that it is going to end. I think the story is going to be told non-linearly, and even more non-linearly than the game was Right, but in a different way.
Speaker 1:Right, not like Abby goes and then Ellie goes, and it's like day one, two and three of Abby, yeah, or Ellie, day one, two, no, it's going to be like and it's not going to be like active sequence flashback sequence no going to be like active sequence, flashback sequence, active see, I think we're going to be putting these characters in different spots in the timeline and jumping around right and trying to figure out.
Speaker 2:I think they're going to try and build the season more as like a mystery yeah, it's going to be.
Speaker 1:Any it's going to be anywhere from the second they get yeah, like five years later, day one in jackson to seattle, day three, and anything can happen in that time, with the occasional flash flashback to the scene with Abby's father and her, like before DeJol and Ellie stuff.
Speaker 2:Yes, like the deterioration of that relationship.
Speaker 1:And how strong that relationship was before that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think all of that makes total sense and I think really it's the only way to do it. And if they can do it and do it well, you're talking about like a pretty, probably a pretty special season of television. Yes, because, man, if you can tell a non-linear story in a coherent way and make it make sense, like that's it's, it doesn't really get it much better than that. You know what I mean it really doesn't.
Speaker 2:You're just sitting there and you're like my head is spinning. And then again just the Abby stuff. Man, just make her. You don't have to make her likable, because I think Abby inherently is likable. It's the way she's presented that just makes it a tough climb for not the character, but a tough climb for the, the player, to accept her as likable yeah because you just want you want you it's.
Speaker 2:It's brilliant in the way that the game does it, in the sense that, like it puts you literally in ellie's shoes. Right, you're like I don't want to play as this character, I want to kill this character. She killed joel. Why are you making me play as her? You know so in in a sense, the game does a really great job of that. It puts you in ellie's position and you are angry and you just want to get your hands on her. And then the even better part of what the you just want to get your hands on her, and then the even better part of what the game does is you get your hands on her and then she just kicks your ass again and then she lets you go and then she says you know what?
Speaker 1:No big deal.
Speaker 2:She kicks you on the ass and sends you back to freaking Montana, and then you're like, well, I can't let that go.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But then you, and then it suddenly transitions you into Abby's shoes and you're like I don't, I don't want to be here, but you are here, but I'm stuck here, sorry. And then, because that's where the love stuff comes in, and that the love stuff is ultimately what kind of grounds you to Abby and gives you a reason to want to see her keep going, whereas I think the show has to do that much, much earlier. You have to want to be actively, maybe not rooting for her, but you have to at least understand her and you have to at least understand her perspective, instead of her coming in as this demon Right who just flips your entire world upside down, like you but her world was slipped upside down.
Speaker 2:That's the point we're trying to make well, yeah, exactly exactly, sell that right and again you.
Speaker 1:I think they need to make it apparent and this is again, it's to my point it's like, like it's why you cast Timothy Chalamet as Paul Atreides, it's why you cast Pedro Pascal as Joel, like when the person that's like morally on the fence does the bad half of the fence goes on the bad half of the fence, you get the likable actor to be the person to do it. So you do have to present Joel. You know you want to talk about the perspective thing. You have to make Joel a villain of some sort this season because naturally we're not. The rubber band's not going to pull that much for him as it would for Abby. Just it's going to snap. Like Joel, it's going to pull and it's still going to be intact, like that's kind of how you got to present it. Like Joel is not this altruistic, good person. No, he made one of the most selfish acts in human history and you know, conceivably, partially could have ended the whole human race.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I mean, you know, I don't think he makes any mistake about that either, I don't think he.
Speaker 2:But it does seem like, you know, through those therapy sessions at least we're getting at least one of them. There is like a tinge of regret in his voice when he speaks about it, right, I mean he's like I saved her, but like his voice, his voice cracks a little bit when he says it, like the weight of that decision clearly weighs on him. Yeah, in a way that the decision doesn't weigh on him in the game, it's the lying that weighs on him, like the line that ellie is what really weighs on him, more so than the actual decision itself. Right, I would like to see him grapple with the decision itself on top of the lie. You know, right, for a guy that's already grappled with so much. You know, one of my favorite scenes in that last season is his just kind of like breakdown to tommy. Yeah, when, like it really humanizes him, when he's like I'm not as strong as I used to be I can't freaking hear out of one side of my head.
Speaker 2:You know I I'm not. I'm not built for this. I'm not built to protect her. That's my biggest fear and it's a really freaking Again when you're talking about alterations to the plot. It's one of the smartest ones.
Speaker 1:It contextualizes the Sarah stuff as well too, and it hardens it even further to be like I can't In the game. It's like I can't lose another daughter again. But he's like I physically can't lose another daughter again. But he's like I physically can't lose another daughter and emotionally can't lose another daughter again. I got presented the second chance. I'd rather you see this through. I love you. You can do this. You need to get her there and Tommy's like. This isn't my journey. I have Maria now I also have my family. Go protect yours. That's where we're both at right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then protect yours. That's where we are. That's where we're both at right now. I mean Tommy was ready to relent too which is another important thing about his character as much as he was ready to tell Joel you know, kind of like you're on your own he was ultimately going to relent and take Ellie to the college, right which I mean. All history I don't know. I wonder what that story looks like, the one where Tommy actually Takes Ellie the rest of the way instead of Joel.
Speaker 1:Tommy would have Saw Marlene and been like Well, this is my old, long last pal, maria.
Speaker 2:Jesus Christ Joel. Jesus Christ Joel. Oh, we're not going to get that man yeah, oh, we're not going to get that man. Yeah, I'm really excited for what the next seven weeks looks like.
Speaker 1:To be honest, Maybe I'm excited because I get the Last of Us back, but the same thing's going to happen. I'm going to get real sad a whole bunch of weeks this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there's a lot less like in the last post-part 2. There's a lot less jarring instant, holy shit, sad moments. It's more like these drawn out sequences, whereas part 1 had Tess, henry and Sam, bill and Frank in the game anyway Bill and Frank and Bill and Frank in the show too, but there were these individual moments whereas part two is more like not the nostalgia, but it's seeing Joel and Ellie's relationship kind of deteriorate, seeing Abby and her father. It's all these moments of man, things could have been okay, right, you know what I mean. Things could have been okay, right, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like things could have been fine and then they just weren't I mean the big piece, like I said, like, and I think, if, if the first season, what's the first season's like big thing? It's endurance, survive, and it's the humanity and the endurance and the surviving. Season two, I think, is it's like the ideology of perspective and how important that is and then and then.
Speaker 1:Well, I think season three is the actual cycle of violence, cause Ellie has every chance to stop, she has every chance to stop and she can, she can. And then once one's provoked, the other one's provoked and it's never going to stop. And then, like I said, dina's the one that kind of just like no, it said, dina's the one that kind of just like no, it's fine, like it's, it's okay, like she pulls, like the goodwill hunting like it's not your fault, like it's okay.
Speaker 2:And there's degrees of escalation too in part two, like joel is obvious. Well, I guess you could argue abby's dad is the inciting is the inciting one right right inciting one like abby's dad begets joel right joel begets. I guess the next person that dies is Manny. Right, manny begets, or yeah, manny begets. Where does it start? Well, abby kills Joel. Well, joel kills Abby's dad. Well, joel kills Abby's dad. Abby kills Joel, abby kills Joel. Tommy kills Manny.
Speaker 1:Well, before that, ellie kills uh what's her oh? Nora. Ellie kills Nora and she kills the one guy with the headphones on that's listening to the music before. Yeah, Kills him. Abby kills Jesse.
Speaker 2:Abby kills Jesse, tommy kills Manny, tommy kills Manny, then Ellie kills Mel, ellie kills Mel, and then Yara kills Isaac. Abby has the opportunity to kill Ellie.
Speaker 1:Yep, and she lets her go, but then again and then Ellie comes back it never stops. It never stops. I think there's going to be some again. I hope they start season three and end season three with the exact same shot of Bella Ramsey sitting in the water Like, oh no, bro, I'll never forget when I play. I'll never. I'm never. I think I'm gonna accept it now gameplay purposes. I don't know if I I'm never, story-wise, like going out of my way to play the last of us part two again.
Speaker 2:I still have never played it for the back. I can't play that once is.
Speaker 1:I was kicking through the first game over the last few months. I I can't do it with this game. It's not. This gameplay is so well done. I'm like a last of us part two truther for lack of better term, but like I just I can't like that broke me, I'll be back to it for the um, the freaking.
Speaker 2:What was that? Like? The survival mode?
Speaker 2:oh, the remaster, yeah I love that, like that was so much yeah like the, uh, like the roguelite, like survival mode, where you can pick like any character, not any character, but like you have like a cast of characters to pick from and they all have like the different, like kind of like perks like that they have. That was really cool, um, and yeah, it's interesting like talking about it now like the first one. Technically, that kind of brokers, any type of piece, is Abby, but I mean she does it from a place of like superiority, like I won go home.
Speaker 2:So, like from a place of like superiority right, I won go home right.
Speaker 1:So, like you know, she stops because she gets humanized by lev. Lev starts to give her like a scent and again levin, levin abby turned into joel and ellie. It's the same and I said like that can get carried for a game, like you can carry that plausibly for a whole game yeah and then ellie gets dina's dina and and Jesse's kid but it doesn't change her, it doesn't humanize her.
Speaker 1:I wonder what a catalyst for a third game would look like. As long as it's Jon Bernthal, I'll be happy. As long as Jon Bernthal's involved.
Speaker 2:Maybe Bernthal's like an ex-firefly when you kind of go back to that.
Speaker 1:You go that route he could be an ex-Firefly. He can be. I mean, the world could start to man, I wonder. There's so many routes you can take. We don't even know what happened overseas with this whole thing. Like, no, we don't know what happened and you know, there's so much like. The United States is a pretty decently sized country. There's so many different places. The United States is a pretty decently sized country. There's so many different places. We've only been to what? Boston, pittsburgh, jackson, santa Clara, seattle In the games. Yeah, we haven't been anywhere down south. We don't know what happened in the south. We don't know what happened on the border. Nobody knows what happened in this whole thing. Yeah, I just don't know how you would go about it. But maybe just if Isaac's ex military, maybe you positioned Bernthal as somebody that knew Isaac and is coming back. Maybe he takes control of WLF and they're like all out of salt to take out Abby. It's just how do you get Ellie and Abby on the same team?
Speaker 2:Well, that's why I think you can make him an ex firefly and then like firefly, and then like he, he knows what happened, yeah, he finds out that joel's dead, and then he's just like well, score safe. Yeah, you know what I mean which fits burn dolls style. Yeah right, I would love that man. I would so love john burn, though let me tell you something let me tell you something, man, um, but I think that's it. You have any final kind of thoughts before we sign off and check this episode?
Speaker 1:out. No, I mean just be nice to everyone.
Speaker 2:Just be a good human being.
Speaker 1:Maybe I'm going to take that route for my final thoughts. Is my platform to say just be a good human being Like you don't have to come on here, go on the internet and hide behind a screen or hide behind anything just to say that you hate people. Like it's just not worth it. Yeah, it's always sad as well too. Um, you know, stuff that gets pre-hated just never makes sense to me as well too. Like I'm really, really keen to see the humanity that takes place in the show. It's just, it's the thing that makes this universe and this, this story, so impeccably incredible is the humanity to it. I think Mazin and Druckmann are a heck of a duo together as well, too, and you know, I just I can't wait. I can wait for some things, but I can't wait to just see this unfold and see how they execute. Like, just as a lover of like storytelling and film, like I can't wait to see the execution behind this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's my biggest thing. My biggest kind of takeaway is I'm super keen to see how they tell this story, in the sense like it's different from the first season. In the sense, like the first season, I was just keen to see how it played out, because the first season is pretty straightforward in how the story's presented, how the character's presented. I just wanted to see how it would look. I wanted to see how these moments that I remember so vividly from these games and these characters just see how it plays out in a TV live action format. And it was sensational, right. This one I'm more keen to see how. I'm almost more keen to see how they alter things to make it work Right. And I'm super, just, super excited to see I mean, I'm excited to see everybody but the Abby stuff.
Speaker 2:I want so badly for that character to be liked, because I think there's so much to that character and so much nuance that gets lost in the blinders for that character, and most of it is in how people perceive the character.
Speaker 2:Some of it is layered in how the game told the character's story Right, which, again, I'm never going to begrudge them for it, because I think it's a super smart way to introduce a character, yeah, and be like she did all these horrible things and you guys faced off and not only do you not get to immediately exact your revenge on her, you now have to play as her and here's her story, right? I think from a gaming perspective, it's super interesting for a TV show. I think you just need to make her likable and make her a true protagonist, instead of waiting until like the second to third act of a game to be like, no, she's a protagonist now. So I'm really excited to see that, really excited to see all these performances when, really excited to see how pedro and bella changed from right season one, and really excited to see caitlin devere's performance as abby.
Speaker 1:I'm just really, really looking forward to that um yeah, these performances, I think, are going to be absolutely stellar yeah, um, so that's it.
Speaker 2:That's our last of us. Part two preview Again, you heard me say up top we littered this episode with spoilers for the game. Careful, be very careful, especially over the next few weeks, if you don't want to know anything. Don't let the holier-than-thou gamer crowd spoil your experience.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that's super important. Don't let them. You know, and you're. These are coming from two gamers that played this game.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know, don't let them spoil your experience. Or, you know, let you believe that, like people are incapable just because they don't like the way that people look or sound, or just because it doesn't, people are funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Just because it doesn't, people are funny, and just don't let them also make you feel like an idiot for not knowing things are going to happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you want to speculate on something that clearly isn't going to happen, don't let people ruin your experience. Let yourself theorize and do all the normal stuff that you would do for a TV show or a movie. If you don't think Joel's going to know, if you think joel's gonna go to seattle with ellie, like cool, you know, like I'm not, I'm never gonna like shut you down or like cut your, cut your legs off for theorizing on stuff that, like I know is not gonna happen or I know is going to happen, like part of you know. That's why I always appreciated like hbo's, you know approach to these sunday shows. It's like an event right that we all collectively experience. Because I know whatever happens in this first episode, the, the gaming crowd is going to get on, get on twitter and just be like I didn't like this, that another thing, or they're ruining this storyline or whatever. Like chill out, let everyone experience this um for themselves, regardless of the knowledge that you come with right um, because at the end of the day, like an adaptation, you kind of got to look at an adaptation as like an alternate, almost like an alternate universe, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like the game, and I forget it might have even been in correlation to the last one. I can't remember and I can't remember who said it, but it's a sentiment that I've always shared and it's when you see an adaptation of something, the source material is the source material. That's always going to be there. The game is always going to be the game. Nothing that happens in this show is ever going to change anything that happens in the game. It's not like a course correction, it's not a retcon. It's truly just a retelling or a new retelling of the same story. If you enjoy the game more than the show, fine. The game is always going to be the game. I know people going back to the Bill and Frank thing from last season like it ruined this and that it didn't ruin it. You still have. You still have the Last of Us part 1.
Speaker 1:Yeah you make the best point about it too. It's like the show all it did. I can't remember who it was that said it. It was the best point that I saw all day, because I've been like dipping into, like just deep dive in the last of us lord throughout the whole day just to get myself prepared tonight. But it's they still get the car by the end of the episode right still, the thing still happens.
Speaker 1:That needs to happen. If the game truth is one of you, the game truthers, it's what this horror? Oh, how horrible that we got one of the most beautiful episodes of television out of that, like how horrible of a thing that is. That literally accentuates the actual theme of this whole. This whole story, like that's probably one of the more important episodes of that season, if we really want to break it down, because it sets up the emotional core of the why of that whole story. That's the why it sets up joel's thing to the end. Joel's whole catalyst for that thing is Frank's permission to be the father figure to her, to be her protector.
Speaker 1:Bill literally gives him permission to do it yeah, like if Tess gets them physically on the way Bill gets him, emotionally on the way to be her person.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly, exactly and, like I said, the game will always be there. You always have those moments that the show does not override just because it didn't adapt those particular moments and, conversely, heck, maybe this second season will do the inverse. Maybe people will get the second season and be like I actually like this better. You know what I mean, and if that's the case, great. But the game is still a game and the game still matters and the game still happens. You can't have it one way or the other. One doesn't negate the other Just because you enjoy one more or less. Both still exist within the same frame. It's just a different medium of telling it. So that's my PSA, my closing message. You still have both things Right. You have the show. If you enjoy the show, you have the game. If you enjoy the game. If you enjoy both, you're eating good Right. So try to enjoy both, because they're both really high-quality things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what an insane concept.
Speaker 2:Maybe you should just enjoy. So that's going to do it for us this week. You can follow us on Twitter at Project INF underscore pod. You can follow us on Facebook. You can follow us on Instagram At the Project Infinite pod. You can follow us on YouTube and TikTok at the Project Infinite podcast. Next week Daredevil Born Again. Season one recap. Season finale is this coming Tuesday.
Speaker 1:I'm going to call it right now. We're also going to have a fantastic four trailer breakdown. I can feel it.
Speaker 2:I can feel it any expectations or thoughts going into the finale of Daredevil this bullseye Punisher Daredevil confrontation is going to be insane.
Speaker 1:Just the way that. Who's the duo that's doing the Benson and Moorhead? Yeah, benson and Moorhead. Just the way that they. Who's the duo that's doing the? Benson and Moorhead? Yeah, benson and Moorhead. Just the way that they're moving, especially from that episode eight. How stylized it was and it was something I was saying about episode one like this is the most stylized thing that we've gotten out of the MCU other than like Loki, and a lot of the most stylized things have come out of the, you know, out of the multiversal saga. But just the way that they're moving, that's it. That's probably one of the better penultimate episodes of television that I've seen as well, too, and the the legwork that they had to do to get themselves set up, because they literally had episodes one, eight and nine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, to get them back to understand how crucial and how important of a villain bullseye is and like the absolute star that they have with Wilson.
Speaker 2:Bethel, he's amazing.
Speaker 1:He is Menacing is like an understatement. I would rather a menacing villain than whatever he is. He's terrifying. It's insane. So I want to see more of him. I believe we already saw set photos of season two of him with the actual bullseye insignia on his head, because he's a psycho. I can't wait for it. Um so I wonder if this season finale of daredevil is gonna have like this they lose instead of they win, like I think he's actually gonna lose at the end of this.
Speaker 2:I think there's an element of that. Definitely, because I think next season is shaping up to be like daredevil and company versus fisk, like versus the nc vigilante task force. Yes, yeah, and so we'll see how that goes, yep.
Speaker 1:Travesty that this Spider-Man movie a hundred percent won't be a street level movie which kind of extends the story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but I'm also curious to see how they write around that. You know, I think, I think next season will be a little, a little more coherent and a little more bombastic because I think Benson and Moorhead are just the showrunners now. And they are, yeah, they're doing season two like in full, and they knew. Just an incredible testament by the way, to everyone involved that they were able to kind of Frankenstein this season together from what it could have been, yep.
Speaker 2:So, honestly, just outstanding work, yes, to be able to patch this together, yeah, and put out pretty, pretty high. I mean, even the lesser episodes of the show were still really really great, right, right you know.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I can't because obviously john berthold is going to come back for this finale and absolutely cook and whatever happens yep, um, obviously, whatever the fight between them, I think we're going to find out Foggy's alive as well too.
Speaker 1:We're probably going to find out that he's alive somewhere, because next season Foggy and Karen are probably going to be main players next season. Like they're not going to make that mistake ever again. To take them out of that, there were two characters that made that original show so incredible, so I think they know. I just can't overstate how incredible the performances are from Charlie Cox it's the best that he's been. Vincent D'Onofrio it's the best he's been as well too. And Wilson Bethel by far the best that he's ever been. Yeah, he is. Oh my God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's just I love the when he breaks out and as soon as he picks up those freaking scissors, man, I'm like, oh, here we go, like you know what horrible thing is about to happen. Yeah, I mean, I echo your sentiments. I think I'm really looking forward to this finale. I think it feels like they've set up like actually a coherent penultimate into finale setup, which a lot of these Marvel shows, for whatever reason, haven't been able to do. Maybe Loki excluded. Ms Marvel, I would argue. I think has a pretty good penultimate to finale setup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, agatha all along also has a really good penultimate episode.
Speaker 2:Because Agatha did it differently. Where it was like the penultimate was almost like the finale.
Speaker 1:And then the finale was like an epil, where it was like.
Speaker 2:The penultimate was almost like the finale.
Speaker 1:And then the finale was like an epilogue. It was like this epilogue emotional payoff episode.
Speaker 2:But also it does have a lot of really revealing sentiments in the sense man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we have to have a conversation about Agatha along on the Disney Plus show ranking, because when we found out that she was fleecing all these witches for hundreds of years, we joked about it but we kind of called it. We said, just make her the villain of this. You don't have to have some Mephisto, you can just make her the villain of this show. She was not redeemed. No.
Speaker 2:She's not a good person. She got lucky, yep, in the sense that she ran into a reality warper who could actually make the road real Right.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's good stuff. So, yeah, we'll talk about Daredevil Born again. We'll see you on the other side, See you on the other side, See on the other side of. And yeah, we'll obviously probably start next week's episode. Just kind of giving our quick thoughts on this first episode. If anyone was around for us last year with the Last of Us, we were like that first episode was so great and we were like I guess we just have to do a whole episode on this, and then the second episode happens and we're like, well, I guess we on this.
Speaker 1:We did that for like five weeks. Well, the third episode happened and we were like is this the best television show that's running right now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we might run into that problem. Not next week, because we will talk about Daredevil.
Speaker 1:This podcast is encompassing of Daredevil.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this episode by the way, I forgot to say this up top episode 150.
Speaker 1:Wow, 150 episodes insane.
Speaker 2:Glad we're talking about something we both love, which is the last of us besides episode because episode 100 we notoriously reviewed the flash movie. Yeah, we deserve that yeah, we did but yeah, so we're gonna go enjoy this first episode of last of us, season 2 and we will see you next week for daredevil born again, season 1 review from me, from the. We're talking about the last Careful man, the Last of Us, part 2. Careful.
Speaker 1:I just don't want to be dead. There's a lot of people that die. I just don't want to be dead.
Speaker 2:There are a lot of people that die From the Tommy Miller of the podcast.
Speaker 1:All right, I'm a sharpshooter Like Steph Curry.
Speaker 2:Tommy Doobie Shoot.
Speaker 1:He do be keeping that thing on Dude. I'm so glad they added that little piece that he was in Desert Storm.
Speaker 2:He was also Ghost Rider.
Speaker 1:I saw a clip from Agents of SHIELD. I think I sent it to you today. Man, we're going to get her. Did we ever talk about Agents of SHIELD in full? No, we need to. No, of the only shows that literally has an upward trajectory the whole way through up until season 5, obviously, but literally each season gets better. You don't really see that from shows.
Speaker 2:No, my Wi-Fi is literally called the framework because of Agent's shit, because the framework arc is incredible.
Speaker 1:Man, they do the Ghost Rider arc and the framework arc in the same season and they're both great, and somehow they tie Ghost Rider back into it. Yeah, it's awesome. How are they moving? And then season five comes out and I'm like there's no way it can get better than this. And then it did get better than that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, all right, we'll see you next week. Daredevil Born Again. Enjoy the first season or first episode of season two of Last of Us.
Speaker 1:It depends on what happens. I don't know how much it's going to be an episode.
Speaker 2:We'll see. We got about 10 minutes till showtime, all right, guys. Until then, goodbye Peace.
